We had our first snow this year today and I got to test the Quattro. Well, the car didn't feel too surefooted as the road had not been touched, so there was about 2" snow packed down by other cars travelling on the road. It was a real wet snow with ice underneath. Being in these conditions, I was travelling between 30-35 mph. I started up an incline and the rear of the car just swung around, right in front of a Blazer and a pickup. (one in each lane of the 4-lane road). I was getting passed by 2-wheel drive cars. Now, I'm used to driving with Subaru's AWD system, and never felt so out of control. In the snow in my SVX, I would travel in similar conditions at 50mph, with no sliding at all. So I'm beginning to wonder, what it is with the A4. I'm trying not to believe that the Subaru system is superior in real world, although the Audi is superior on paper. <p>So, here are the conclusions I've tried to draw for myself. At first, I thought that, well, maybe the snow is worse now than the snows I had the SVX in, but I remember making similar comments last December, when I first got the A4. So, I thought, maybe it's the tire size (235/40 R17 Pirelli P7000SS), but the SVX had 225/50R16, so not a whole lot of difference there. <p>The only two conclusions that I can come up with are: 1) that possibly it is the tires being used... again the A4 with Pirelli P7000SS, while the SVX had Comp T/A VR4, which had a tread pattern that looked more for snow than the Pirelli's have.<p>2) the difference in the drivetrain. First Subaru's boxer engine has a better center of gravity and is better balanced that the V-6. Also the Subaru' start with 90% of the torque up front and can transfer up to a 50/50 split where the A4 is 50/50 to begin with and can transfer up to 70% to any given wheel. I'm wondering if starting with a 50/50 torque split possibly would have caused the rear to swing out. It seems that the less power that you put in the rear in snow would be best to allow the front to pull the car as much as possible. I would consider that the Subaru system may be better suited for bad weather, while the Audi Quattro is more geared toward performance.<p>Anyway, I still love my A4, and would not trade it for any Subaru, even if it did turn out to be a better weather performer, so my next decision it what snow tires to purchase. <p>After reading Tire Rack's report comparing the Bridgestone's to the new Bridgestone and the new Michelin Arctic Alpine tire, the Bridgestone's will not be considered. Especially since you only get about 50% of actual snow wear out of them. So, I'm considering the Pirelli snow tires, which I know some of you have and have complimented, or the Dunlop tires, which others of you have complimented. Can any of you guys give me the pro's and con's of each of these, or recommend a snow tire, and why it is the best.<p>Thanks.<p>G. Hale<br>98.5 Pearl 2.8QMS

What part of the country are you in?<br>Here in Ohio, we also had our first real snow last night (only about 1.5 inches). The ground had been wet the night before, and so there was ice underneath the snow. I'm also using the Pirelli P7000SS's, in the same size you have. To be honest, I was a little surprised at how much I slid around (playing on a back street, not in traffic) with these tires. I'm assuming the extra width has a negative effect.<br>I was interested to hear what you said about the rear end sliding out, because the same thing happened to me this morning. I was driving straight, and gave it some gas to see how the car would react in the snow. I was surprised to feel the rear end starting to come around without my turning the wheel! Thinking about it, I wondered if the problem was the quattro system pushing too much torque to the rear, while the fronts were still slipping. Anyone have an explanation?<br>Granted, it only did this because I "forced" it to by giving too much gas, but it was curious. Normally, of course, I would never try to accelerate so fast in the snow.<p>Just thought I'd report.<p>Miles

Your problems are a combination of<p>1) The P7000SS is an awfull tire for snow.<br>2) Wider tires and 17" wheels are a bad winter<br> combo.<p>Solution: Winter tires, on 15 or 16" wheels.<p>Recomendations would require more info on your local conditions (weather, types of roads most often used, etc).<p>Please move this to the wheels+tire forum.<p>Erik

I am uncertain as to the speed rating on your tires, but I have tended to go toward the lower ratings when I fit mud/snows as one of the ways they get a higher rating is to use a harder compound, which has less internal friction. These harder compounds have a down side that they get harder at a higher temperature than the slower tires. I like to say that Mother Nature never gives you a free lunch.

The tires are definitely rhe culprit. Last season I had BLIZZAKS and the car was FLAWLESS. You could never induce the rear to slide out no matter how much ya tried!! Towards the end of the season I purchased Bridgestone S02 tires. It snowed one more time in NY and I wanted to see how bad they are in the snow. I went three blocks and returned. The car was uncontrollable!!!! Tires are SO important!! Don't even think of driving with more confidence if you have Quattro and sport tires. Its a deadly combination.

We had approximately 3" of snow on Tuesday that melted and turned to ice. 5 more inches of snow fell on top of the ice Tuesday night. I have a '97 2.8LM A4, my sister owns a '97 Legacy GT automatic. Both cars have Gooyear Eagle RS-A's size 205/55-16. A4 hp - 172, Sube - 165. The cars are very comparable in size, weight, weight distribution. <p>Well I said this should be an interesting snow test between the 2.<p>1. Lauching from a dead stop on a flat surface - Sube wins.<p>2. Going up a steep hill from a start on a level bottom at moderate speed. Equal perfromance, but A4 fishtailed, Sube did not.<p>3. Start from midway up hill, both lauched with ease, but Sube got to the top of the hill faster.<p>4. Figure 8's on parking lot, A4 plowed and continuously lost it. Sube handled extremely well. A4 brakes are too touchy with ABS coming on too easily, Sube was perfect!<p>Toss in better heater for Sube during the test, temp was 11 F, the Sube wins top honors for N.E. Pa. weather.<p>Now please no flames on this, I still prefer my A4 over the Sube, because our roads are decently plowed,salted, antiskidded most of the winter and the Quattro gets me home from work when they aren't.<p>But the bottom line is for someone needing a winter AWD vehicle with decent snow/ice performance, excellent heater, and very low mechanical problems over the life of the car.....GO Subaru!!!

I live in NE Tennessee, so we usually only have a few weeks of snow weather. TN is not great about getting out to clear the roads either, so when we do get snow, it's pretty bad driving conditions, but I travel primarily on 4-lane highways and interstates. Performance handling would not be an issue, as I would only run the snow tires in when there was actually snow or ice, so again, only a few weeks a year. The main thing for me would be grip. Noise, rough ride, handling.... couldn't care less. Grip primarily and full winter tread wear are the only two real considerations.

Thanks Bob. I thought this might at least be a contributible factor. My family has owned Subaru's since '79, and I have owned 5 myself, so I know they go great in snow.... even the FWD models will pass some 4WD vehicles. I still own three Subaru's including '76 and '79 4x4 wagons which I have bought within the last two years. I'm getting ready to break the '79 out, but this snow came unexpectedly, and these two wagons are at my father-in-laws. <p>I had really expected more from the Audi in the snow. I had read articles about Audi's legendary Quattro system in several articles. The one article that stuck in my head was when R&T (I believe it was) had a write up about the SVX when it was first introduced in '92. In the article, they mentioned two things, which I took their advice upon. First was that they had swapped the OEM Bridgestone RE-95 tires on the SVX with Comp T/A VR-4 and said they were 100% better in the snow. So after the OE tires wore out on my SVX, I put on the Comp T/A VR-4's.... and they were great in snow, but loud on dry pavement. The second thing that I took their advice upon was when I traded my '93 SVX last year for the A4, which in the review of the SVX, they mentioned that the AWD system was great, but still did not match the snow ability of Audi's Quattro system. Of course back then, they were not talking about the A4, but still the same AWD system. <p>I just don't think putting that much torque in the rear is a good idea for snow driving. Maybe one of their enhancements would be to have a digital display (maybe build it into the climate control) where we could program the default torque split between the front/rear, and still allow that split to vary as needed. Wouldn't that be nice. Then we could program it for around 30/70 in racing situations, probably 50/50 for everyday dry, or even rainy conditions, and around 70/30, 80/20, or even 90/10 during the snow periods.<p>Thanks for your post.<p>G. Hale

The Snow storm we had last week in Maryland was a major bummer. I still had my Toyo Proxes on in 225-45-17 bu I was certain that Qauttro would still be of help. Well, it was and it wasnt. The problem was completely due to my tires. Z rated rubber is very soft and under very cold conditions it freezes and becomes very chunky. I felt my tires and tehy could hold no snow in between the grooves and were horribly slippery too. Needless to say I made it home after 3 hours but did slip once around a turn. I was kind of aggrevated taht i didnt do better even though I have Quattro. So i put on my stock wheel with my goodyear RSA's, problem solved! Quattro rules the day and I could do anything at insane speeds on ice and snow. Corner were no prob as long as you kept on the gas, that is the key to Quattro, dont EVER let off the gas. I learned this quickly and eventually began to feel like a Rally car driver plowing down the roads. With Snow tires this car would be unstoppable. I now know the difference that a good tire can make even in different weather conditions like snow, even if a tire says its M&S rated, like the P7000SS, its still the wrong compound for the temperature.<br>BTW, i have had experience myself and other Audi folk in local clubs tell me that a properly prepared Quattro car, i.e. with snow tires, will perform better than any other car, including a Subaru, although their system is still worth noting. <br>Someother quick notes, this was my frist time driving Quattro in the snow and it did take some learning, there are ways to make it work better I think then just driving as normal, I am still unsure why you fishtailed as I did the same maneuvers as you and even with my Z tires didnt have this problem on any surface.<p>Hope this helps,<br>Chris<ul><li><a href="http://www,geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9179/index.html">My A4 page</a></li></ul>

Especially with the auto trans cars. Subaru uses a viscous coupling between the front and rear differentials to transfer torque. It starts at a normal torque transfer of 90% front, 10% rear. As the front wheels start to spin a very gentle transfer of torque goes to the rear. A soon as the rear rotation catches up to the front tires, it backs off the transfer of torque to the rear. Thus much easier to launch in the snow. On the other hand, the A4's constant transfer all around has a tendency to break the tires loose more easily. On a dry road the Quattro wins hands down over the Subaru in the handling department.<p>A lot of people buy an Audi for the prestige and have a hard time accepting that other vehicles do things better than the A4. I have driven Bimmers and must say the rear wheel drive handles much better than an A4 in my comfort zone. But when it snows everyone knows you leave the Bimmer in the garage! All cars have their place!

I had problems in light snow with my SVX and Pirelli's, big time. Comp T/A's, while not dedicated snows, are much better suited to winter road conditions, no matter what type of engine configuration/center of gravity,etc. Also, the Pirelli compound is less cold-weather friendly, I believe.<p>I would rave about my TQM mit studded Hakka 1's, but that's another forum..<p>BTW, I miss my SVX, but having driven them side-by-side for a few months, the Subaru's handling was a broad sword compared to the A4's rapier..I always felt like I had big gloves and boots on in the SVX after driving the Audi. And for the hp, the SVX was relatively slow ( but effortless and smoooth ! ), with a sluggish transmission. And I loved that mouse-fur dash !<p>Donnie

It is not possible to make a programable/ajustable torque split for the TorSen center diff used in most modern quattros. It is a purely mechanical system.<p>As far as Audi vs Subaru AWD...<br>keep in mind that the manual Subarus us a different sytem than the auto's (or at least they used to, I assume they still do).<br>As far as the informal winter driving test, driving technique would be a big factor. And I'm not nessisarly saying good or bad techniqe, just that one of the techniqes may have been more suitable for that particular cars characteristics than the other.<p>That said, the Legacy GT 2.5 is a nice ride,<p>Erik

Given your limited use of winter tires, I would say get 195/65-15's on steel wheels, unless you have some 15" alloys you aren't using.<p>As for a specific tire, any winter would be a huge improvement, and given your limited use, I would buy a moderately priced tire. I undertand there are some really good deals on the Dunlop Graspics. I would check www.tirerack.com and see what the prices are for tires in that size. Plus they have package deals with steel wheels, shipped to you mounted and balanced.<p>Erik<br>PS: When I said wrong forum, I was refering more to my reply, because to me this particular case was clearly tire related. Not trying to get on your case or anything...

As you said, the ice compound is gone on Blizzaks at about the 50% wear point. But there is something wrong with everyone's logic that has complained about this so far. And that is that you shouldn't be driving on near bald snow tires anyway! At somewhere arount the 75% wear point with any snow tire, it's time to seriously think about replacing it. So, you don't really lose 50% of the effective life with the Bridgestones, it's more like 25%, using my 75% number. Still something, but not as serious as people make it sound. Also, after the ice tread is gone, the Blizzaks can be used for a long time as all-season tires. That might be useful to some folks. (Not me, though, because I want either a performance all-weather tire, or Z-rated performance tires when the snows aren't on the car).<p>If I were buying new snow tires right now, however, I would go for the Alpins.

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Since they are initially biased towards the front of the car the front spins first then power is distributed to the rear, hence creating a small lag time, I have NEVER had this with my A4Q. I think maybe we might see some 4 wheel spin in a high powered Audi. Also, I have autox against some AWD Subarus and their AWD system is no match for Quattro in the dry. I see them constantly oversteering into turns and doing 180's whereas I can not achieve this, unless I was doing insane speeds and even at the ones I have achieved on autox, Quattro jsut wont allow this, so far at least.<br>Chris

I surely agree with Chris above that the compound, the tread pattern, and the width combined to make a poor snow car. Width is a big factor, but I just looked at the tread on the tire rack site. It was be good in wet, but look at the ratings at the bottom of the page. Very poor snow traction compared to snow tires. <p>I bought steel wheels and put Pirelli Winter S's on them and they corner in snow like they are on rail and give excellent confidence even at high speeds. My suggestion is to find more of a snow tire with good dry ratings, not the other way around. Good luck

My quattro (94 S4) runs on very soft z-rated rubber in the summer. I had been putting off installing on my snow tires this year. <p>During coldish days (-10 celsius) the ABS would engage coming to a "moderate stop" on dry pavement! The tires felt mike they were made of hard plastic - not rubber. With my snows in place (Bridgestone WT21 225/50/16/H) the handling and performance is much better - even in the dry.<p>The general saying is that "All seasons perform badly in all seasons". Get a set snowtires. Even cheapies will likely be better than Z-rated all seasons tires in the winter. <p>As soon as the snow falls, I become a parking lot rally car driver.<p>Dwayne<br>94 S4

For at least the 98s, the manual has the viscous center diff, the auto uses a computer controlled clutch on the center. I also have one of each (the wife's is the Legacy), the Subaru is a little better in snow, but the handling dynamics favor the A4 in the dry. I think it's just a difference in priority on how the cars are tuned.

I agree that the SVX's interior is much nicer than the A4's.... with the exception of the fake wood in the SVX and the real wood in the A4. <p>Due a limited vocabulary on my part, I am unable to decipher which of the cars you believed handled better, but to me my A4 with stock sport suspension would leave the SVX in the turns. Of course, I'm running 235/40 R17 tires on the A4 too, so I couldn't compare the stock tires, as I only drove on them for about 10 miles.