<br>We got our first major snow today (5") and the roads are very slick. My A4 Quattro (chip,exhaust,filter) with Yokahama Guardex snows is absolutely incredible in the snow! I can romp on it in second gear and it will hardly turn a wheel. What a rush! Try that in a rear wheel drive car (even if it has traction control)<p>Quattro is number 1 in the winter.<p><br> <p>

Just back from a safety training held on<br>pure ice, quattro is just fantastic and even<br>with large winter tires (Continental TS770 225/45/17) I was able to accelerate smoothly<br>without too much sliping (EDS helps a lot), <br>now on snow I can almost drive the same way<br>as on dry, grip, grip and grip, I'm amazed !<p>Season's greetings from Switzerland <p>Laurent

just picked up a 99 A4 1.8TQM a week ago...650 miles later it's doing it's job as the get-through-the-snow-and-rain in comfort car.<p>as it's an underpowered car in it's stock form, i'm looking forward to chipping it...perhaps then it will have at least 1/2 driving response of either of the BMWs that i own (currently both M3s), it's sport suspension feels below part of a 328is, and at nearly $30K, leather isn't available.<p>the audi is fun in the slush, yes, and as i've been saying to myself, "the wetter, the better.". however, since it's only nasty here in nj hear a few days of the year, i do miss the M3s in the garage. i've figure that another $5-$10K in upgrades (turbo, suspension, wheels, exhaust) will bring it closer to the performance of the M3...but then again, that's the price of an M3, isn't it? sure the audi has the little stuff covered which goes a long way, but comparing straight performance, 95% of the time (dry), it's hard to compare.<p>don't knock audi's german neighbors for their product...until you've driven it at even 8/10s at the track, you will only begin to appreciate the true performance that has been engineered into the car. <p>as always, your opinion and mileage may vary. have a happy new year.<br>

I have been going back and forth and back and forth and back and forth (and back and forth) between the A4 and a 96-97 328 4-door with sport suspension. The BMW is undeniably a better driver's car, but the Audi is not that far off, and offers a lot more amenity-wise (much larger trunk, fold-down rear seats, much nicer interior than the E36, quattro). <p>In the end, I think I'm leaning ever so slightly toward the A4, for two reasons. #1, I'll get a full three-year warranty instead of the balance of maybe a year, tops. This is important because I'm stretching to afford the car as it is; I don't want to have to pay for repairs too. #2, I'm not yet a good enough track driver to justify the added capabilities of the 328. I figure three years of axing and driver's schools with the A4 will take me to the point that I can justify a trade in on an E46 M3 with some real driving prowess. Paying my dues, so to speak.<p>Mostly, my point is that both Audi and BMW make fantastic cars. I get tired of BMW drivers looking down their nose at Audis (not you, Ben), and I get tired of Audi drivers getting defensive about not owning BMWs. Just a suggestion: let's all enjoy the cars we have, shall we, and not waste our time belittling other people's cars.

You abbreviated "nj" so I take it that you meant New Jersey. The past 3 years we only had about 4 snowstorms. In 94 we had 17 snowstorms. I'm not sure how long you have been living in NJ. To say that we have nasty weather only a few days is wrong. We have could have constant snow anytime in the winter and it rains a lot in the spring. Are you sure that you are from New Jersey?

Well I'm happy to hear about your satisfaction with your Audi. Personally, I bought an M3, which stays nice and cozy-warm in my garage during bad weather while I plod around in my old 4wd pickup truck. I'm sure it won't handle as well in the dry as the A4, but I'm sure it will go thru deeper stuff than the Audi and I won't care so much when some bonehead slides into my rear in bad condition :)<p>Brad Franklin

in snow, even the deep stuff, I feel safer with quattro. True 4WD (like the kind on older pickups, mine's 10 yrs.) sends a disproportianate, but constant, amount of power to the axles (notice I said axles, not wheels). This will tend to make the vehicle slide sideways or do a "180" in very slick conditions. The quattro on the other hand is a completely different animal and not prone to that kind of behavior, and because of its design will handle snow deeper than the axles are high (something 4WD would have trouble with).<p>But you are right, I'd rather have some idiot clobbering my truck than my A4.

and little else, and looked like the designers forgot to give it a rear end, maybe I'd get an M3. But I chose to get a car that is a fine example of both form and function. That is why I'm at this forum, WHICH IS FOR A4s, NOT BMWs.

Different cars for different needs... that's it,<br>no differences between Audi and BMW, same <br>quality, same price range, almost same perfo but<br>different style. I would love to drive an M3 even<br>if I truly appreciate the sensation a quattro<br>offers. Now the point is BMW do not propose<br>an M3 Avant... and for a windsurfer who loves to<br>drive there is no other alternatives than an<br>S4... when I'll start playing golf I'll reconsider an M3 or a 996 ;-)<p>Greetings Laurent

In addition, you have to stop and shift the thing into 4wd, instead of it being there all the time (which can save your ass when you hit a patch of ice). I've never had the thing go sideways or do a 180, but then again, when I'm driving through 30" of snow, I don't go very fast :) I always thought that old 4wd systems were designed to prevent that by turning the front axle sleightly faster than the rear, thus it is always pulling (that's why you shouldn't drive in 4wd on dry roads, the stress will heat up your front differential and make it fail prematurely).<p>Just out of curiosity, what allows the A4 to handle snow deeper than it's axles? Not sure I understand that one. My read on the thing is total ground clearance. The axles and differentials don't provide much drag when going through the snow, but the body does. My truck will tear through snow like there's nothing there until it starts to push up over the front of the truck (usually happens when it gets more than 3 feet deep). After that, it will go for a while, but eventually the snow provides an "up force" which reduces front weight, and eventually it stops and you have to dig it out a little before you can go again. I would think an A4 would get stuck when the snow pushes over the hood (and winshield) unless it is that really fluffy snow that doesn't provide much resistance. I drove several miles in about 25" fluffy snow without a hint of a problem. Also you might have problems with cooling if your car is buried in snow :) <p>I guess a last point to be made - tires make a BIG difference. That year I kept getting stuck in 36" snow when it would push over the hood, I just had some semi-worn all season radials. Snow tires make a BIG difference, so if you don't have 'em, get 'em (even RWD BMW's go quite well in snow if they have good snow tires, as opposed to my M3 with MXX3's that won't go up a very sleight grade in 2" snow). <p>Anyway happy snow driving and be careful!<p>Brad Franklin

I agree completely. Unfortunately, Laurent, BMW seems like they are getting further and further away from purpose-built sports coupes and going to more cushy rides to please the masses. Yep, they're coming out with a sport utility. Take a look at the E46 interior, and then look at a Mercedes C class interior. They look alot alike to me. I personally love the ergonomic cockpit feel of the older E36 interior. The new E46 rides smoother and doesn't have the edge of the E36, even the styling is less agressive (albeit very nice). Sorry for the BMW commentary guys, I know it is an A4 forum. Let's hope Audi keeps (and even improves) their sporting nature.<p>Brad Franklin

besides the 17 snowstorms back in 94, what have we had? i was still riding my bicycle until last weekend! (just too cold).<p>i've been living in nj since i was 1.5 years old (in philly up until then). nj winters have been so lame that i've hung up my national ski patrol jacket as they closed the ski area that i used to volunteer at (craigmeur) for lack of snow for past few seasons.<p>i've been in nj a while...one snowy season doesn't constitute nasty weather in my book.

It snowed here in MD last week and my wife tried to come home from work in our BMW wagon. After about a mile of slipping and sliding on 2" of snow and ice (note: summer tires on BMW), she turned around and called me to pick her up in the quattro. The a4 is built for the slick stuff as I had no trouble at all, even with the stock Conti touring tires. The BMW is plain awful in the snow, even with traction control. I don't even think snow tires would help because the car is so torquey and has a slushbox. <p>I have now been confined to drive the wagon when snow is forecast in the future.<p>Mick<br>98 A4 2.8QM snowmobile<br>94 530it beach buggy

I agree, Brad, that the E46 just isn't as sport-oriented as the E36. Didn't a lot of people make the same complaint when the E36 replaced the E30? Once is an accident, twice is a trend...<p>That said, I've never cared much for the E36 interior. A little too dark and plasticky, IMO -- makes me feel too closed in. In fact, it's one of the reasons I'm leaning towards an A4 over an E36 328. But, foibles aside, the E36 (318 excepted) is a fabulous car, and I'm sure you're enjoying the heck out of yours! :-)

Im looking forward to the snow because that means less people on the road.<br>Quattro and Guardex will be sweet.<br>Cant wait, happy new year.

I was at work last week (a Nissan dealer in SD,CA) when a new 99 BMW 323i pulled up. A woman got out of it and went towards our service area. I went over to check out the mini- 5 series sedan and then asked the woman how she liked it. She said she was a salesperson from the local BMW dealer and was selling the car to one of our service customers. I told her I had an A4 Quattro and she said I should have bought a 323/328! I immediately started talking about traction, especially Winter traction. She tried to say that BMW's traction control was as good as AWD in the snow! I laughed in her face and we argued for a couple minutes about it. When her customer walked off she told me it wasn't nice to make her product look bad in front of her customer!! Funny huh! I don't know how many times I've seen Bimmers slide all over the road in the snow; Quattro RULES!<br>

I have owned an E36/5 and an E30 - both with four bangers. I also have a friend with an E36/M3 and the comparison is not even close with an A4. My 318ti was better balanced and quicker because it was lighter, RWD, and lacked AWD drag and weight.<p>However, I needed 4 doors, not an SUV, and liked the AWD and still wanted to have fun driving. (Not a big M3 four door fan.) I don't have the space and income to carry more than one car and have a family. Voila the A4! It fits the bill perfectly.<p>People here seem to have BMW envy. I don't understand it. I never saw someone mention the A4 in the BMW forums and take the heat that they do here. Although say something bad about the E30/M3 on the main BMW Digest and duck for cover...<p>Although also living in NJ - I have to say that we get crappy weather slightly more often than your post indicated. <p>Enjoy your stable of autos - throw in a pickup truck for trips to the Home Depot an M3 both E30 and E36 and an A4 and you pretty much have my dream garage.<p>Regards,<br> Tim Connor 1.8TqMS

I live in Portland, and went to Rassmussen BMW just to toy with the iea of a 323/328, and the lady there just raved about the traction control, or whatever they call it, in the BMW. She said that she went to a BMW retreat where they compared the 328, A4, the GS300, and the MB and Volvo equivalents (in price anyways). They drove each car in the exact same manner, over various obstacles, such as a large, wet sheet of metal, and had to perform emergency maneuvers, and she said the BMW was way better than the A4. She felt the A4 was a nice car, but not anywhere near the BMW.<br>I took it all with a grain of salt, though.<p>Mental imagery... it snowed here aobut a week ago... a 1/2" of dust on the roads. All the execs in the company who dirve '97+ 5-Series either didnt even try to venture out in the snow, or would go out and returned becasue they didnt have any traction. One guy lost traction going down a slight hill, and his car was basically stuck in the middle of the road... they had to push him to the side. He didn't get of the car though... didn't want to ruin the Armani!<p>

I can think of worse rides than that 5er, Mick, like my 280ZX. But, if you want to trade yer wagon for my outback even just for winter, let me know!!!<p>Darryl<br>98.5 1.8T qms<br>95 Outback m<br>81 280ZX GL m

So, what exactly happens when you drive a BMW with traction control in the snow and you reach the point where the tires no longer have ANY grip? (like on a hill) Does the car just stop? Is engine power reduced to the point where you're just idling?<p>Curious...

What traction control does is measures slippage, and when the tire begins to slip, it then applies the brakes to stop it from slipping. Very effective on preventing drifts on dry roads and hard cornering, but in my book, doesn't do squat for winter driving. No matter what you do, you cannot compensate for the lack of 2 more wheels on the road.<p>Albert

<br>nt

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Ive noticed on my Volvo 850R that the engine far overpowers the traction control that is supposed to work below 25MPH. I guess it slows down the wheel that looses the traction first but once both start spinning, it seems to be of no help. Maybe BMW has a different system.<p>Overall traction is no comparison to the 1.8 tqm.

You were partially correct, but both you and the BMW salesperson were rude to each other.<p>My wife has a 99 A4 Quattro, and I've driven it recently on the snow. It will pull away from my 323i w/ traction control, but not by as big a margin as you might think. No way does it make the Bimmer "look silly". Traction control combined with 50% weight distribution over the rear wheels isn't equal to AWD, but it's damn close.<p>I'm still glad I chose the Bimmer (and my wife is still glad she has the A4!)

The wheels don't lock up--the same rotation sensors that are employed in the Anti-Lock Brake system tell the car's computer when a wheel loses traction and apply brake to that wheel only until it's rotation approaches zero. It also reduces engine power at the same time.<p>It's a relatively simple system, but remarkably effective in a car whose weight distribution is close to 50/50 front and rear on level ground. When you are going up a hill, the weight transfers progressively more to the rear wheels depending on the grade.<p>Not the same as AWD, but NO weight penalty, and no mechanical complexity, and no $1650 price penalty.<p>It's nothing to sneeze at. By the way, I have a 323i Bimmer--the wife has an A4 Quattro. I have driven both in the snow. Unless you are driving in deep snow, Traction-Control is more than adequate. I've easily pulled away from Saabs, which supposedly rank #1 in FWD traction competence.

You should try a 99 model BMW--even with the stock M+S Conti tires! You won't come to the same conclusion. We are a two vehicle family, a 323i and an A4 Quattro--both 99's. We live in Minneapolis and I have driven on snow for 40 years without mishap, and--without snow tires!<p>The A4 w/ Quattro WILL surpass a new Bimmer in the snow, but not by as much as some might think. The traction control is VERY effective in all but the deepest snow.<p>And in the majority of the time when the roads are clear and dry (that includes most of the winter in Minneapolis) the Bimmer is superior to the Audi in most handling situations. My wife takes my Bimmer every excuse she can get when the weather is nice. <p>The deciding factor for her in buying the A4 was Quattro. However, even with Quattro she won't take the Audi out in the snow. "The Quattro is just in case I have no choice and have to drive." (She has only a few years experience in driving in winter conditions!)

All traction control is going to do is limit your tires from spinning at high rates of speed. It will either trottle back or apply the brakes automatically. If a BWM with traction control has no traction it not going anywhere. People are mislead to think that traction control it going to activate spikes in your tires and instantly give you traction! Traction control is good for people that are very skilled at driving in snow & ice, but it's not going to increase your tractions. Amongst my friends who have 2 M3's and 1 325i, they are sitting at home right now not even thinking about going out, because they can't even make it out of their driveways. There is 15" of snow on the ground right now and out my upstairs window I see two 98 or 99 BMW 3 series stuck in the middle of the street. They have been there for hours. I was just out in my quattro and no problems. I just don't see how there even a match. I'll bet my life in a 1/4 race in 2" of snow that my 98.5 2.8 quattro would rip RWD BMW with traction control shreds in a race. Not that I would be racing people in the snow, but it's not even a comparison!<p>15" of snow on the ground and it still coming!<p>Brad Bilut / Chicago 98.5 2.8QA<br>

isn't it his beater?