Erratically Functioning ABS Controller - With Optional Background & DIY Philosophy
08-20-2004, 03:02 PM
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Erratically Functioning ABS Controller - With Optional Background & DIY Philosophy
Ok, instead of boring everyone with the background leading to my current diagnoses and problem, I will place the background materials at the bottom of this entry. (To me the background is as or more interesting than the problem, but I will spare most of you).
Here's my problem.
> I get an intermittent combination of the three beeps followed by the illumination of the dash ABS warning light a flashing Brake warning light.
> From testing under safe conditions, I learned that although I always have full braking power, when the warning light combination is on, my ABS does not function
> Using OBDtool and VAG-COM software I got the following:
AUDI ABS Fault
VAG Number: 8E0614111M
Component: ABS/EDS 5.3 QUATTRO D31
1 fault found
01203 - Electrical connection between ABS and Instrument Cluster
03 - 10 - No Signal - Intermittent
> I've tracked this down to an intermittent connection in or around J102, the electrical connection to the ABS controller integrated into the ABS hydraulic unit (all of this is under the hood). Wiggling this connection in just the right way will temporarily extinguish the warning lights (accompanied by the sound of a relay making contact which sounds like it is coming from within the same control module), but they will re-appear, usually in a few minutes of driving.
> Despite thorough inspection and continuity tests, I can't seem to determine if the problem is in the harness wires near the connector, in the connector itself, or possibly within the ABS electronic module which is integrated into the ABS hydraulic unit.
I would be very grateful if someone had a good idea on how to proceed, or had been through some or all of this before.
Thanks in advance!
A6LoverHater
(Note: Here is a page devoted to documenting this problem: www.nonosi.org/a6absfailure)
*BACKGROUND*
For most of my life I, like many reading this entry, have been and thoroughly enjoyed being a Do-It-Myselfer. However, with two young children and the purchase of our used 1999 Audi A6 Avant family car three years ago, I decided it was time to start a new chapter, a new approach to car maintainence based on a new and radical theory.
The theory was that by using an Audi dealer for problems more severe than, say, worn windshield wiper blades, I would have more time to spend with my family. Sadly, this theory seems fundamentally flawed.
The first proof of this involved three separate trips to two different local Audi dealers in an attempt to resolve a nagging but irregular bad idle and occasional stalling problem. After an accumulation of around 10 hours at $108 per hour paid for misdiagnoses, I threw away a good part of my theory and decided to attempt diagnosing the problem myself.
Doing thorough web searches, many of which led very helpfully to this forum, and using common sense and experience, I came up with my own diagnoses in less than an hour; a bad idle stabilizer valve. I took my A6 along with this information to the Audi dealer and asked them to simply replace this part. This operation took them about 9 days involving the delivery of the wrong part, and bad installation. Also, they tried to charge me again for an hour of diagnoses. Finally, when the correct new idle stabilizer valve was installed, it absolutely fixed the problem.
My lesson from this? I adapted my theory to use someone I trust (me) in the diagnoses phase of auto repair. I could have saved myself many personal hours and over $1000 of wasted cash by doing the diagnoses myself and then paying to have the bad component replaced in the case of the idle stabilizer valve. Instead of spending this lost time with my babies, I wasted time dealing with a missing vehicle (it's in the shop is not a phrase that comes easily to me), many dealer drop-offs and pick ups, and worst of all hours sitting in plush Audi dealer lounges trying to stir interest from within for the stacks of People magazine.
I had this lesson and my adapted theory in mind when I heard three beeps and saw my ABS warning light come on accompanied by a flashing Brake warning light.
Out of curiosity, I called the Audi dealer. They told me to have the car towed to a safe place (because these lights have to do with the braking system and brakes are important safety equipment) and wait two weeks for their next available appointment. Instead I bought the Bentley Audi A6 repair manual on CD ($100), OBDtool ($80) and downloaded the amazingly good VAG-COM software to work out a diagnoses through the OBD II port ($100 with registration). With all of this, I am currently down a little more than paying one of my local Audi dealers for two hours of misdiagnoses.
The instrument ABS and Brake warning lights are not consistently on. They typically go on for anywhere from 10 seconds to 10 minutes and then off for longer periods with no discernable pattern. When I first used the VAG-COM software, with the warning lights on, the ABS controller was not communicating. This by itself was very useful information. I had tested the brakes with the warning lights both off and on and learned that they corresponded to the ABS functioning or not. This makes me believe the ABS controller is functioning, but is having trouble communicating.
This lead me directly to the ABS control module integrated into the ABS hydraulic control unit. I found the electrical connector (J102) leading to the unit, removed and inspected it. Upon plugging it back in, the ABS functioned, however still intermittently. By manipulating it, I can get it to work. When it does, I hear a relay engaging and the ABS warning lights go out.
Since then I've removed this connector several times with the ignition off, and very carefully inspected each conductor and each end point. I also conducted a continuity test on each of the wires and their end connectors and they all seem to be electrically connected and mechanically sound. Of course, there could be an intermittent connection among them that I can't get to disconnect when testing.
So, now I am not sure what my next move is other than taking it to a qualified shop (I won't return to Audi) asking them to determine if the problem is in the controller end of the jack or in the connector and cable.
As I said above, I would be very grateful if someone had a good idea on how to proceed, or had been through some or all of this before.
Thanks in advance!
Note: I now have a page here: http://www.nonosi.org/a6absfailure/ devoted to documenting this problem.
Here's my problem.
> I get an intermittent combination of the three beeps followed by the illumination of the dash ABS warning light a flashing Brake warning light.
> From testing under safe conditions, I learned that although I always have full braking power, when the warning light combination is on, my ABS does not function
> Using OBDtool and VAG-COM software I got the following:
AUDI ABS Fault
VAG Number: 8E0614111M
Component: ABS/EDS 5.3 QUATTRO D31
1 fault found
01203 - Electrical connection between ABS and Instrument Cluster
03 - 10 - No Signal - Intermittent
> I've tracked this down to an intermittent connection in or around J102, the electrical connection to the ABS controller integrated into the ABS hydraulic unit (all of this is under the hood). Wiggling this connection in just the right way will temporarily extinguish the warning lights (accompanied by the sound of a relay making contact which sounds like it is coming from within the same control module), but they will re-appear, usually in a few minutes of driving.
> Despite thorough inspection and continuity tests, I can't seem to determine if the problem is in the harness wires near the connector, in the connector itself, or possibly within the ABS electronic module which is integrated into the ABS hydraulic unit.
I would be very grateful if someone had a good idea on how to proceed, or had been through some or all of this before.
Thanks in advance!
A6LoverHater
(Note: Here is a page devoted to documenting this problem: www.nonosi.org/a6absfailure)
*BACKGROUND*
For most of my life I, like many reading this entry, have been and thoroughly enjoyed being a Do-It-Myselfer. However, with two young children and the purchase of our used 1999 Audi A6 Avant family car three years ago, I decided it was time to start a new chapter, a new approach to car maintainence based on a new and radical theory.
The theory was that by using an Audi dealer for problems more severe than, say, worn windshield wiper blades, I would have more time to spend with my family. Sadly, this theory seems fundamentally flawed.
The first proof of this involved three separate trips to two different local Audi dealers in an attempt to resolve a nagging but irregular bad idle and occasional stalling problem. After an accumulation of around 10 hours at $108 per hour paid for misdiagnoses, I threw away a good part of my theory and decided to attempt diagnosing the problem myself.
Doing thorough web searches, many of which led very helpfully to this forum, and using common sense and experience, I came up with my own diagnoses in less than an hour; a bad idle stabilizer valve. I took my A6 along with this information to the Audi dealer and asked them to simply replace this part. This operation took them about 9 days involving the delivery of the wrong part, and bad installation. Also, they tried to charge me again for an hour of diagnoses. Finally, when the correct new idle stabilizer valve was installed, it absolutely fixed the problem.
My lesson from this? I adapted my theory to use someone I trust (me) in the diagnoses phase of auto repair. I could have saved myself many personal hours and over $1000 of wasted cash by doing the diagnoses myself and then paying to have the bad component replaced in the case of the idle stabilizer valve. Instead of spending this lost time with my babies, I wasted time dealing with a missing vehicle (it's in the shop is not a phrase that comes easily to me), many dealer drop-offs and pick ups, and worst of all hours sitting in plush Audi dealer lounges trying to stir interest from within for the stacks of People magazine.
I had this lesson and my adapted theory in mind when I heard three beeps and saw my ABS warning light come on accompanied by a flashing Brake warning light.
Out of curiosity, I called the Audi dealer. They told me to have the car towed to a safe place (because these lights have to do with the braking system and brakes are important safety equipment) and wait two weeks for their next available appointment. Instead I bought the Bentley Audi A6 repair manual on CD ($100), OBDtool ($80) and downloaded the amazingly good VAG-COM software to work out a diagnoses through the OBD II port ($100 with registration). With all of this, I am currently down a little more than paying one of my local Audi dealers for two hours of misdiagnoses.
The instrument ABS and Brake warning lights are not consistently on. They typically go on for anywhere from 10 seconds to 10 minutes and then off for longer periods with no discernable pattern. When I first used the VAG-COM software, with the warning lights on, the ABS controller was not communicating. This by itself was very useful information. I had tested the brakes with the warning lights both off and on and learned that they corresponded to the ABS functioning or not. This makes me believe the ABS controller is functioning, but is having trouble communicating.
This lead me directly to the ABS control module integrated into the ABS hydraulic control unit. I found the electrical connector (J102) leading to the unit, removed and inspected it. Upon plugging it back in, the ABS functioned, however still intermittently. By manipulating it, I can get it to work. When it does, I hear a relay engaging and the ABS warning lights go out.
Since then I've removed this connector several times with the ignition off, and very carefully inspected each conductor and each end point. I also conducted a continuity test on each of the wires and their end connectors and they all seem to be electrically connected and mechanically sound. Of course, there could be an intermittent connection among them that I can't get to disconnect when testing.
So, now I am not sure what my next move is other than taking it to a qualified shop (I won't return to Audi) asking them to determine if the problem is in the controller end of the jack or in the connector and cable.
As I said above, I would be very grateful if someone had a good idea on how to proceed, or had been through some or all of this before.
Thanks in advance!
Note: I now have a page here: http://www.nonosi.org/a6absfailure/ devoted to documenting this problem.
08-22-2004, 09:20 AM
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Re: Any luck yet???
Nope - no luck yet...
The clicking relay sounds to be internal to the small control module that is integrated into the side of the ABS hydraulic control unit (this is where the described connector connects). The only thing that causes the relay to click - and causes the ABS warning lights to extinguish is wiggling the J104 connector. So, it seems the problem is isolated to within an inch in either direction of the connector.
Possible fixes are:
1> Cut off and remove the old connector and splice and replace a new one in its place
2> Remove and replace the entire wiring harness that goes to the hydraulic control unit (this could be really messy if the same harness branches to other devices)
3> Replace the entire hydraulic control unit, or if possible, only the electronic control module that is integrated into the side of the hydraulic control unit.
Has anyone out there done any of these operations?
I am only now becoming familiar with the Bentley CD that covers 1999 A6's. So far I haven't found sections that deal with, for instance debugging the ABS controller or what would be involved in re-stringing a new controller wire harness. Am I missing something? The Bentley CD seems pretty difficult to navigate through.
- Thanks!
The clicking relay sounds to be internal to the small control module that is integrated into the side of the ABS hydraulic control unit (this is where the described connector connects). The only thing that causes the relay to click - and causes the ABS warning lights to extinguish is wiggling the J104 connector. So, it seems the problem is isolated to within an inch in either direction of the connector.
Possible fixes are:
1> Cut off and remove the old connector and splice and replace a new one in its place
2> Remove and replace the entire wiring harness that goes to the hydraulic control unit (this could be really messy if the same harness branches to other devices)
3> Replace the entire hydraulic control unit, or if possible, only the electronic control module that is integrated into the side of the hydraulic control unit.
Has anyone out there done any of these operations?
I am only now becoming familiar with the Bentley CD that covers 1999 A6's. So far I haven't found sections that deal with, for instance debugging the ABS controller or what would be involved in re-stringing a new controller wire harness. Am I missing something? The Bentley CD seems pretty difficult to navigate through.
- Thanks!
08-22-2004, 02:47 PM
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Re: Keep At It: You Need To Solve Before Mine Fails!
Mine's the same, spent all weekend researching this. It's the ABS unit but nobody seems to have opened one up to "re-solder" it. Problems all solved with replacement ABS unit. I don't want to disable my car and find I can't get into the module.
Bosch have modified module 8EO-614-111-A now 8EO-614-111-E
Have found a company here in UK who have started to "re-manufacture" them but still £300.
http://www.bba-reman.com/index.htm
looks like I will be buying one. Then I'll try to take mine apart, however BBA-reman. are offering £75 each to buy in these units for repair.
In future there will be plenty more of these failures I think.
ONLY SEEMS TO BE QUATTRO MODELS ??<ul><li><a href="http://www.bba-reman.com/index.htm">http://www.bba-reman.com/index.htm</a</li></ul>
Bosch have modified module 8EO-614-111-A now 8EO-614-111-E
Have found a company here in UK who have started to "re-manufacture" them but still £300.
http://www.bba-reman.com/index.htm
looks like I will be buying one. Then I'll try to take mine apart, however BBA-reman. are offering £75 each to buy in these units for repair.
In future there will be plenty more of these failures I think.
ONLY SEEMS TO BE QUATTRO MODELS ??<ul><li><a href="http://www.bba-reman.com/index.htm">http://www.bba-reman.com/index.htm</a</li></ul>
08-23-2004, 10:22 AM
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Re: Keep At It: You Need To Solve Before Mine Fails!
So - from my earlier descriptions, you believe you are having the same sort of problem? Are you ABS lights occasionally on and off? Are you able to get your ABS warning lights to go out by wiggling the connector to the ABS hyraulic unit?
Thanks to a helpful link ga_mueller posted to a previous thread (I'd missed in my earlier searches), it sounds like what we have is a "syndrome" even if a small one. We are not alone in our ABS control electronics problems.
I will see about removing the control electronics to see if there is anything obviously wrong internally. If I can't get a quick fix doing that, I will begin a search for a (rebuilt or new) full replacement for my ABS unit or see if anyone is willing to replace only the control electronics. I would do this part too if I had more time.
Thanks for your post!
- A6LoverHater
Thanks to a helpful link ga_mueller posted to a previous thread (I'd missed in my earlier searches), it sounds like what we have is a "syndrome" even if a small one. We are not alone in our ABS control electronics problems.
I will see about removing the control electronics to see if there is anything obviously wrong internally. If I can't get a quick fix doing that, I will begin a search for a (rebuilt or new) full replacement for my ABS unit or see if anyone is willing to replace only the control electronics. I would do this part too if I had more time.
Thanks for your post!
- A6LoverHater
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08-23-2004, 11:22 AM
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Re: Maybe It's Filled With Water
Thanks for this post. That was a very useful link to the previous thread on the same topic.
Initially I would have dismissed the idea of water in the ABS control electronics. The equilibrium temperature under the hood while the car is being operated is well over 120 F. I don't understand how, even if water made it into the control unit, it wouldn't be driven off pretty quickly by the heat. But I believe the posts are true. Very strange!
But if water can get it, any sort of corrosion would be possible in the control unit, and increasingly, that is where I think my problem is.
I will see about removing the control electronics (this involves removing the left front tire in order to then remove the washer solution bottle to then give enough elbow room to get to the torx connectors that hold the control electronics case on to the ABS hydraulic unit... Whew!)
I wonder just how wide-spread this problem is...
Thanks,
A6LoverHater
Initially I would have dismissed the idea of water in the ABS control electronics. The equilibrium temperature under the hood while the car is being operated is well over 120 F. I don't understand how, even if water made it into the control unit, it wouldn't be driven off pretty quickly by the heat. But I believe the posts are true. Very strange!
But if water can get it, any sort of corrosion would be possible in the control unit, and increasingly, that is where I think my problem is.
I will see about removing the control electronics (this involves removing the left front tire in order to then remove the washer solution bottle to then give enough elbow room to get to the torx connectors that hold the control electronics case on to the ABS hydraulic unit... Whew!)
I wonder just how wide-spread this problem is...
Thanks,
A6LoverHater
08-23-2004, 02:07 PM
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Re: Keep At It: You Need To Solve Before Mine Fails!
YES!!
Exactly the same, read all these threads and we're all bobbing turds in the same sea of ****!
Of note, my car is S4. Am I right that this problem only effects quattros? I notice the VW boys have same problem and they're not quattros?
Also, defining moment is tapping the unit with a hammer.....it either cancels the warning light or starts it! This deletes any external "wiring/instrument cluster" faults.
This all points to a dry joint inside which is easily & cheaply fixed. I have bitten the bullet and purchased a recon unit from BBA who want my old unit back, but I desperately want to get inside the unit...someone has to.
Exactly the same, read all these threads and we're all bobbing turds in the same sea of ****!
Of note, my car is S4. Am I right that this problem only effects quattros? I notice the VW boys have same problem and they're not quattros?
Also, defining moment is tapping the unit with a hammer.....it either cancels the warning light or starts it! This deletes any external "wiring/instrument cluster" faults.
This all points to a dry joint inside which is easily & cheaply fixed. I have bitten the bullet and purchased a recon unit from BBA who want my old unit back, but I desperately want to get inside the unit...someone has to.
08-23-2004, 02:46 PM
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Re: Keep At It: You Need To Solve Before Mine Fails!
That's great you plan to take a look inside and see what the problem is. As far as you know, is it "simply" a matter of removing the torx headed bolts on the plastic cover? On my A6, this involves removing the washer bottle which requires first removing the left front wheel. What an ingenious design.
When you get yours open and if you spot the problem, I hope you might be able to take a photo or two. If I get there first, I will do the same.
I haven't tried the hammer tap you describe. However by pressing the male connector firmly on the control electonics female connector and by putting a little torque on the box, I get the same effect. It really does sound like the same thing.
I just checked with my local audi dealer. $1308.29 to replace the entire unit including the electronics. They don't rebuild and my old core has no value. All web searches so far for the US seem to back this up - no way to rebuild.
When you get yours open and if you spot the problem, I hope you might be able to take a photo or two. If I get there first, I will do the same.
I haven't tried the hammer tap you describe. However by pressing the male connector firmly on the control electonics female connector and by putting a little torque on the box, I get the same effect. It really does sound like the same thing.
I just checked with my local audi dealer. $1308.29 to replace the entire unit including the electronics. They don't rebuild and my old core has no value. All web searches so far for the US seem to back this up - no way to rebuild.