Question for those with Eibach Pro Kit shocks and Springs....
03-29-2003, 04:17 AM
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Question for those with Eibach Pro Kit shocks and Springs....
I was driving my 2000 2.7t this week in West Virginia for work, including about 6 hours of tight mountain switchback roads. I just cant believe the amount of lean and roll and wallowing that this car has. Its one thing on the highway changing lanes, but another thing all together when you start pushing on roads like I mention.
I have spent the last two months trying to figure out a way or why the Bilstein sports wont fit on my car. I have the bently manual and the parts cd and I just cant find a difference between 2000 and the newer cars front shocks. But Bilstein says there is a difference and that their shocks will not fit on my car. I did get one engineer to admit that they may fit, but I was on my own.
Now after my drive, I know I need to do something fast. So I am probably just going to get the Eibach Pro Kit. Of course the rear PSK bar will also go on too. And before anyone says anything, I also have S4 wheels with P6000 tires.
Sorry for the rambling, I guess the quetion is this: I know there is no wallowing or roll on the highway and driving around town with the Pro KIt. But what about pushing it in the twisties or *gasp* going on the track with that setup.
Thanks for all the help on this.
E. J.
PS - I have discounted coil overs. I thought that was the way I was going to go, but the cost is too much.
I have spent the last two months trying to figure out a way or why the Bilstein sports wont fit on my car. I have the bently manual and the parts cd and I just cant find a difference between 2000 and the newer cars front shocks. But Bilstein says there is a difference and that their shocks will not fit on my car. I did get one engineer to admit that they may fit, but I was on my own.
Now after my drive, I know I need to do something fast. So I am probably just going to get the Eibach Pro Kit. Of course the rear PSK bar will also go on too. And before anyone says anything, I also have S4 wheels with P6000 tires.
Sorry for the rambling, I guess the quetion is this: I know there is no wallowing or roll on the highway and driving around town with the Pro KIt. But what about pushing it in the twisties or *gasp* going on the track with that setup.
Thanks for all the help on this.
E. J.
PS - I have discounted coil overs. I thought that was the way I was going to go, but the cost is too much.
03-29-2003, 04:34 AM
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It really works great with the psk bar. do a search, lots of reviews
and coil overs are not THAT much more...as they take less $$$ to install becuase they bolt right in, as opposed to compressing the springs and disassymbling the struts
03-29-2003, 04:49 AM
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I must have read close to 300 posts about suspensions...
In the last few weeks. While helpful, the majority of the reviews are written immediately after the installation and people saying how great they work. But not many reviews of actual conditions in the tight twisty mountain roads or racetracks using the Eibach Pro kit.
The psk bar is a no brainer. As for costs of install, I plan to do it myself so thats not the biggest issue. I agree the coilovers are not THAT much more, but I guess part of me is concerned about streetability with COs too. I can't afford too stiff a ride in my family daily driver- that's what the race car is for.
If anyone wants to comment, I would consider the H&R coilovers.
Thanks again for all the help.
E. J.
The psk bar is a no brainer. As for costs of install, I plan to do it myself so thats not the biggest issue. I agree the coilovers are not THAT much more, but I guess part of me is concerned about streetability with COs too. I can't afford too stiff a ride in my family daily driver- that's what the race car is for.
If anyone wants to comment, I would consider the H&R coilovers.Thanks again for all the help.
E. J.
03-29-2003, 06:15 AM
#4
Go with Eibachs
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/16041/honig_80_pix.jpg"></center><p>I don't recall anyone here who has been disappointed with the Eibach springs/dampers. They improve the appearance, handling, and ride quality. But your'e not going to get an S4 by putting on springs/dampers. These are big, heavy cars, and while it won't handle like an S4, it will be much improved in the type of driving you described.
03-29-2003, 06:18 AM
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I agree. I kind of wish I did the eibachs or bilsteins when I had it apart
<center><img src="http://pictureposter.audiworld.com/5503/img_0010.2.jpg"></center><p>I've done eibachs twice!
03-29-2003, 06:36 AM
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I've had the Eibachs and now have H&R coil-overs.
The H&R c-os ride VERY well, are not at all harsh or sharp. You can set the ride-height RIGHT where you want it front and rear and easily make slight adjustments. The H&R spring-rates are 400 front and 285 rear while the Eibachs are 325 front and 285 rear. The ride passes "all" tests from wife, mother-in-law and parents. Another very good coil-over set-up to consider (JUST what you want...another decision!) is FK. They are very well made, less $$ than H&R c-os. I've experienced them on TTs and A4/S4s and find them well-matched for spring/damper rates and generally smoother than H&R sport c-os and equal to the street c-os.
HTH
HTH
03-29-2003, 09:25 AM
#7
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Here are my bilstein clues so far for an early 2000 4.2/2.7
The link attached below takes you to an Australian site with what seems to be a genuine (German) set of Bilstein catalogs. This is the only place on the web I've found them; the Bilstein parent site in Germany has a pretty cryptic product search feature only and the US site has had the lame "under development" posting for years. Yet if you take the "best guess" 6508/6509 struts from the catalog and order them from allshocks.com, you'll get a shipment from Bilstein's U.S. warehouse a few days later like I did. Bottom line, I've concluded Bilstein U.S. is clueless about this and you just can't get any hard info from Bilstein on what will work.
I have a 2000 A6 4.2 with a VIN # less than 800 sequentially and a build date of 6/99; presumably one of the first A6's down the line that year. My car falls squarely in the Bilstein never-never land of which struts fit, if any. I also poked at Koni some; my memory is if you try the Tire Rack site, Koni just stays away from the 2000 quandry and shows the applications only for the later years.
Here's my best guess of what's going on. The punch line is I think it depends on whether you have the newer most all aluminum suspension (all 4.2's, 2.7's and S6's in the US, but only later 2.8's).
It's clear from the catalog as a general matter the same strut tends to fit all C5 A6/S6 sedan and avant/wagon bodies beginning with a 5/2000 build date--in # shorthand these are the 6508/6509 shocks. See the attached link. Remember the "Sport" shocks are what are called the HD (heavy duty) shocks here, and the "Sprint" shocks are what are called the "Sport" shocks here. You have to search by product type in the attached catalogs. FYI, I ordered the Sport/HD types from allshocks and received them last month. I have not installed them yet, but a pretty careful measurement to the perch from the center bolt up point (they come with new perches (supplied loose and relying on a built in circ clip to locate the height along the strut tube)) seems to confirm they will end up at stock (non sport suspension for an early 2000 4.2) ride height. It is a bit amazing that everything from a 1.8t A6 to a 4.2 S6 Avant takes the same strut, but the catalog is clear on that if you go through the numbers. Also note that due to the circlip approach to locating the perch, a machine shop could cut a new locating groove easily to change ride height; I suspect various of the US suppliers of Bilstein applications in the past of supposedly proprietary set ups for the A6 are simply playing with this circlip location and using the commonly available various springs. For the $$ they've been charging, no surprise no info has come out of them as to what's going on with product fitment.
Another key clue in the catalog I think is that an S6 with a build date of 9/99 forward takes the same struts as the 5/2000 and later of all other A6's. I think 9/99 is probably the first build month of the C5 S6 for Germany and other markets. Here's my guess: starting with all A6 2.7's and 4.2's in 2000 REGARDLESS of build date, the additional aluminum suspension pieces were used in US spec cars. The same change had been made a year or so ealier with A8's to reduce unsprung weight and to clean up long standing handling bad press older A8's got. These aluminum pieces may or may not be in US spec A6 2.8's in this time frame (I don't own one, so haven't focused on it, but my memory is they stayed with the older steel pieces for a while in the US as well). The Bentley manual also refers to later CV joints being of a lighter weight construction, but I don't know if these were cut in at the same time or not. I also know from the European press releases in the 1999-2002 timeframe from the Audi worldwide site that the cut over to the aluminum parts from the steel parts was not made in Germany and elsewhere until later, though I think it was made on introduction with the S6 worldwide from the original Audi S6 press release on the Audi world site. Thus my guess the catalog discrepency with the S6 older build date. Further confusion surrounds UK build A6's which went to a stiffer ride earlier than elsewhere due to complaints in that market--the press seems to suggest they just got the Audi sports suspension settings as standard.
From all of this, my best guess is if you have the full aluminum suspension typical of later 2.8's, all 4.2's, 2.7's and S6's, it's probably the later 6508/6509 Bilstein part numbers. I'm guessing the folks at Bilstein are internally confused because their catalogs are published in Germany, where Audi's production cutover dates for the aluminum suspension pieces are different than in the US.
For the 2.8 crowd, if you've got the older steel suspension typical of the 2.8's, you are really on your own, but I would guess the older fitment listings in the front might work under the only available FWD listing (why would Quattro and FWD be different out at the wheel area, though the half shafts may be different lengths); in the rear it's anyone's guess since the FWD and Quattro suspensions are clearly different and the fitment listing is only for FWD if I remember the catalog right.
I have yet to install the struts on my very early 2000 4.2, but I think they will fit. Ride height looks like it won't change off stock for the non "Sprint" (US HD) version. The bolt up appears to be the same. The strut tubes are somewhat bigger in diameter (a few 10th's), but I expect that if the ride is going to stiffen as it needs to. The front perches look like a close match. The new rear perches they are supplied with by Bilstein seem a bit scary at first blush since they are totally flat on top (made out of aluminum) with no retaining lip around the edge that you normally see built into perches for the springs. We'll see; it looks like the neccesary retention may be what looks like a combination rubber and metal bottom mount on the existing rear strut.
For the other posters, yes I already did the rear roll bar change a long time ago. That helps the passengers no longer literally complain of motion sickness on longer trips, but it's still a SOFT suspension, much more so than my 96 C4 body A6 sedan. My car has the 255/40 17 Dunlop 9000's on the pieplate wheels (tire and wheel weigh over 50 lbs each). The stock C4 ride stiffness (on wimpy 195/65 Goodyear GA 15's) was about the same as my old 85 FWD 5000 5 speed (that weighed almost 1500 pounds less but had a way flexier body!) AFTER I also put in Bilstein HD's on the 5000. The A6 4.2 non-sport is one soft ride! They presumably did it as they first went to 40 series 17's, but boy did they overcompensate!
Finally I also thought about buying all the sports suspension pieces, but my sense from posts is that's a $1000 proposition, the Bilsteins price out at less than half that. Until I found the Bilstein catalog on line, I also thought about trying just the sports suspension struts (posters generally talk about the opposite, using the Eibach/Audi sports springs) I'm also betting on the Audi press on the introduction of the S6 and the more recent A6 changes where they focused on what sound like stiffening the shock specs rather than the springs (which for the sprorts suspension obviously have a different ride height and compensating compression stiffness). I take those as clues as well to focus on the struts if I don't want to lower the car further.
I have a 2000 A6 4.2 with a VIN # less than 800 sequentially and a build date of 6/99; presumably one of the first A6's down the line that year. My car falls squarely in the Bilstein never-never land of which struts fit, if any. I also poked at Koni some; my memory is if you try the Tire Rack site, Koni just stays away from the 2000 quandry and shows the applications only for the later years.
Here's my best guess of what's going on. The punch line is I think it depends on whether you have the newer most all aluminum suspension (all 4.2's, 2.7's and S6's in the US, but only later 2.8's).
It's clear from the catalog as a general matter the same strut tends to fit all C5 A6/S6 sedan and avant/wagon bodies beginning with a 5/2000 build date--in # shorthand these are the 6508/6509 shocks. See the attached link. Remember the "Sport" shocks are what are called the HD (heavy duty) shocks here, and the "Sprint" shocks are what are called the "Sport" shocks here. You have to search by product type in the attached catalogs. FYI, I ordered the Sport/HD types from allshocks and received them last month. I have not installed them yet, but a pretty careful measurement to the perch from the center bolt up point (they come with new perches (supplied loose and relying on a built in circ clip to locate the height along the strut tube)) seems to confirm they will end up at stock (non sport suspension for an early 2000 4.2) ride height. It is a bit amazing that everything from a 1.8t A6 to a 4.2 S6 Avant takes the same strut, but the catalog is clear on that if you go through the numbers. Also note that due to the circlip approach to locating the perch, a machine shop could cut a new locating groove easily to change ride height; I suspect various of the US suppliers of Bilstein applications in the past of supposedly proprietary set ups for the A6 are simply playing with this circlip location and using the commonly available various springs. For the $$ they've been charging, no surprise no info has come out of them as to what's going on with product fitment.
Another key clue in the catalog I think is that an S6 with a build date of 9/99 forward takes the same struts as the 5/2000 and later of all other A6's. I think 9/99 is probably the first build month of the C5 S6 for Germany and other markets. Here's my guess: starting with all A6 2.7's and 4.2's in 2000 REGARDLESS of build date, the additional aluminum suspension pieces were used in US spec cars. The same change had been made a year or so ealier with A8's to reduce unsprung weight and to clean up long standing handling bad press older A8's got. These aluminum pieces may or may not be in US spec A6 2.8's in this time frame (I don't own one, so haven't focused on it, but my memory is they stayed with the older steel pieces for a while in the US as well). The Bentley manual also refers to later CV joints being of a lighter weight construction, but I don't know if these were cut in at the same time or not. I also know from the European press releases in the 1999-2002 timeframe from the Audi worldwide site that the cut over to the aluminum parts from the steel parts was not made in Germany and elsewhere until later, though I think it was made on introduction with the S6 worldwide from the original Audi S6 press release on the Audi world site. Thus my guess the catalog discrepency with the S6 older build date. Further confusion surrounds UK build A6's which went to a stiffer ride earlier than elsewhere due to complaints in that market--the press seems to suggest they just got the Audi sports suspension settings as standard.
From all of this, my best guess is if you have the full aluminum suspension typical of later 2.8's, all 4.2's, 2.7's and S6's, it's probably the later 6508/6509 Bilstein part numbers. I'm guessing the folks at Bilstein are internally confused because their catalogs are published in Germany, where Audi's production cutover dates for the aluminum suspension pieces are different than in the US.
For the 2.8 crowd, if you've got the older steel suspension typical of the 2.8's, you are really on your own, but I would guess the older fitment listings in the front might work under the only available FWD listing (why would Quattro and FWD be different out at the wheel area, though the half shafts may be different lengths); in the rear it's anyone's guess since the FWD and Quattro suspensions are clearly different and the fitment listing is only for FWD if I remember the catalog right.
I have yet to install the struts on my very early 2000 4.2, but I think they will fit. Ride height looks like it won't change off stock for the non "Sprint" (US HD) version. The bolt up appears to be the same. The strut tubes are somewhat bigger in diameter (a few 10th's), but I expect that if the ride is going to stiffen as it needs to. The front perches look like a close match. The new rear perches they are supplied with by Bilstein seem a bit scary at first blush since they are totally flat on top (made out of aluminum) with no retaining lip around the edge that you normally see built into perches for the springs. We'll see; it looks like the neccesary retention may be what looks like a combination rubber and metal bottom mount on the existing rear strut.
For the other posters, yes I already did the rear roll bar change a long time ago. That helps the passengers no longer literally complain of motion sickness on longer trips, but it's still a SOFT suspension, much more so than my 96 C4 body A6 sedan. My car has the 255/40 17 Dunlop 9000's on the pieplate wheels (tire and wheel weigh over 50 lbs each). The stock C4 ride stiffness (on wimpy 195/65 Goodyear GA 15's) was about the same as my old 85 FWD 5000 5 speed (that weighed almost 1500 pounds less but had a way flexier body!) AFTER I also put in Bilstein HD's on the 5000. The A6 4.2 non-sport is one soft ride! They presumably did it as they first went to 40 series 17's, but boy did they overcompensate!
Finally I also thought about buying all the sports suspension pieces, but my sense from posts is that's a $1000 proposition, the Bilsteins price out at less than half that. Until I found the Bilstein catalog on line, I also thought about trying just the sports suspension struts (posters generally talk about the opposite, using the Eibach/Audi sports springs) I'm also betting on the Audi press on the introduction of the S6 and the more recent A6 changes where they focused on what sound like stiffening the shock specs rather than the springs (which for the sprorts suspension obviously have a different ride height and compensating compression stiffness). I take those as clues as well to focus on the struts if I don't want to lower the car further.
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03-29-2003, 02:42 PM
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Follow UP MP...
Great Post! Thanks.
I just want to make sure I have read between the lines enough.
If I want the Sport Shocks here, I want to look at the Sprints catalog (link below) and I get the BE5-6510 and BE5-6511 for my 2.7T? And I assume from your post that those are the same part numbers I can get from Allshocks.com and you think they should work on my car?
Just want to be clear on this. I will take the chance and let everyone know how it goes in the next month or so.
What springs did you match up with the shocks?
Thanks again and great post.
E. J.<ul><li><a href="http://www.quadrantsuspensions.com.au/pdf/Bilstein%20B8.pdf">Bilstein Sprint shocks</a></li></ul>
I just want to make sure I have read between the lines enough.
If I want the Sport Shocks here, I want to look at the Sprints catalog (link below) and I get the BE5-6510 and BE5-6511 for my 2.7T? And I assume from your post that those are the same part numbers I can get from Allshocks.com and you think they should work on my car?
Just want to be clear on this. I will take the chance and let everyone know how it goes in the next month or so.
What springs did you match up with the shocks?
Thanks again and great post.
E. J.<ul><li><a href="http://www.quadrantsuspensions.com.au/pdf/Bilstein%20B8.pdf">Bilstein Sprint shocks</a></li></ul>