'03 A6 w/ misfire & P0346 - need help please
12-15-2013, 12:00 PM
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'03 A6 w/ misfire & P0346 - need help please
I have a 2003 A6 3.0L Quattro with about 120,000 miles. The car has been in the family since new in '03, and until the last two years, all service was performed at the Audi dealer it came from in Pennsylvania. All specified preventative service has been performed early or on time, including that big service where they replace the timing belt and water pump, etc. Fast forward to last week.
I brought the car out west, and quickly found out that our local Audi dealer here is shady at best. I've twice had routine service performed that required me to turn around a few miles from the dealer and bring it back. On another occasion, I was told that all four wheels needed brakes and rotors. Upon bringing it to the local Ford dealer in town who serviced my Mustang since new, it simply needed front brake pads. So, the Audi dealer 1 hour away is no longer an option for me. The next closest Audi dealer is a little over 2 hours away, and I know nothing about them.
So last Sunday, the wife is driving the Audi and calls me from a traffic light that she smells rubber burning. I ask if there are any dash lights on or if any gauges are in the red. She states everything looks fine, just smells burning rubber. I tell her to get through the light, and pull into a business parking lot as she is in a commercial area. While on the phone, and pulling off the road she hears a bang and still smells burning rubber. I tell her to shut the car off, key out of the ignition and I will come meet her. I get there, pop the hood, and the serpentine belt has broken. It was a clean break, and easily slipped out from in front of the motor. I met up the ends, and they look to match, so I don't believe there to be any debris left down inside. As it turns out, we are a half mile from my Ford dealer, so I remove the belt and crank the car. Starts fine, purrs like a kitten, though the battery indicator light is lit up on the dash. Certainly not unexpected to me with the accessory belt being snapped. I drive the car the 0.5 mile to the Ford dealer and leave the car in the lot.
Monday morning Ford calls and says the belt broke because the tensioner broke, so I need a new belt and tensioner. I authorize repairs, to which they state it will be ready Tuesday night as the parts need to come from the Audi dealer. Tuesday night rolls around and there is a "problem". They stated that once the car was put back together, the new tensioner threw a bearing, and they lost the new belt and tensioner. Stated new parts would come from Audi and my car would be ready Thursday. I take a ride over on Thursday, and the car is sitting in the "done" space. Go in to pay and they said it was a tough repair due to being cramped in there, took their mechanic twice the time it takes them to do one of their Fords, but it is fixed and everything is fine. $120 for belt, $120 for tensioner, add in labor and tax and I'm out the door at $400. I'm just happy to have the car back.
Hop in the car and crank her up. Car starts, but idles rough, and within a few seconds, the check engine light is flashing. Only ever saw check engine light once before with a bad coolant temperature sensor, and it was solid yellow not flashing. That was also like a year ago. Without ever putting her in drive, I shut her down and go back inside. A few guys from the shop come out with the code device reader and say they are getting P0346 Cam Position Sensor Error. They state that their device won't read Audi codes to get a ton of detail, but they are thinking bad sensor. I tell them to replace what needs to be replaced, and they say its an easy fix which will be ready Friday night.
I return Friday night, and they state there is a "problem". They replaced the cam sensor and it is still idling very rough and misfiring. They said that it only misfires during idle and they are perplexed because the misfire goes away under load. What was odd to me is that I have a good relationship with this shop, as they have done all the service on my Mustang, and other vehicles we have. They were pretty quiet and aloof, only saying it was a "problem". Monday, as in tomorrow, they said they are taking the car to an Import shop. The town I live in does not have Audi, MB, BMW, or anything outside of Japanese or American cars. There is this one shop, Import Service, who are self proclaimed to specialize in Porsche, Audi, BMW, and MB. It is an independent shop. There is only this one option in this town unless I let it get hauled to the Audi dealer which scares the heck out of me given past experience with them.
My question for the experts on here are as follows, and your input is sincerely appreciated.
1) Does this sound like a death sentence for the car? Is a P0346 the end of the world?
2) Even after the belt broke and I drove the car, I never saw this code, or any check engine light, and I was fixated on the dash from starting the car to parking it in the Ford lot. Could a blown serpentine belt cause internal damage to the engine to cause a misfire?
3) I find it odd that Ford "fixed" the car, never ID'd a misfire or a check engine light, then I start it in their lot and it happens. Could the serpentine belt repair be botched by mechanics at a dealership? I realize it is not Audi, but it isn't like some random person doing it.
4) If you were in this situation, how would you proceed? If it is a death sentence, what kind of money am I looking at for repairs?
Thank you so much in advance for your help. I love the car, and would like to save her if at all possible. If I am in for many thousands of dollars though, that may be the end of the road.
I brought the car out west, and quickly found out that our local Audi dealer here is shady at best. I've twice had routine service performed that required me to turn around a few miles from the dealer and bring it back. On another occasion, I was told that all four wheels needed brakes and rotors. Upon bringing it to the local Ford dealer in town who serviced my Mustang since new, it simply needed front brake pads. So, the Audi dealer 1 hour away is no longer an option for me. The next closest Audi dealer is a little over 2 hours away, and I know nothing about them.
So last Sunday, the wife is driving the Audi and calls me from a traffic light that she smells rubber burning. I ask if there are any dash lights on or if any gauges are in the red. She states everything looks fine, just smells burning rubber. I tell her to get through the light, and pull into a business parking lot as she is in a commercial area. While on the phone, and pulling off the road she hears a bang and still smells burning rubber. I tell her to shut the car off, key out of the ignition and I will come meet her. I get there, pop the hood, and the serpentine belt has broken. It was a clean break, and easily slipped out from in front of the motor. I met up the ends, and they look to match, so I don't believe there to be any debris left down inside. As it turns out, we are a half mile from my Ford dealer, so I remove the belt and crank the car. Starts fine, purrs like a kitten, though the battery indicator light is lit up on the dash. Certainly not unexpected to me with the accessory belt being snapped. I drive the car the 0.5 mile to the Ford dealer and leave the car in the lot.
Monday morning Ford calls and says the belt broke because the tensioner broke, so I need a new belt and tensioner. I authorize repairs, to which they state it will be ready Tuesday night as the parts need to come from the Audi dealer. Tuesday night rolls around and there is a "problem". They stated that once the car was put back together, the new tensioner threw a bearing, and they lost the new belt and tensioner. Stated new parts would come from Audi and my car would be ready Thursday. I take a ride over on Thursday, and the car is sitting in the "done" space. Go in to pay and they said it was a tough repair due to being cramped in there, took their mechanic twice the time it takes them to do one of their Fords, but it is fixed and everything is fine. $120 for belt, $120 for tensioner, add in labor and tax and I'm out the door at $400. I'm just happy to have the car back.
Hop in the car and crank her up. Car starts, but idles rough, and within a few seconds, the check engine light is flashing. Only ever saw check engine light once before with a bad coolant temperature sensor, and it was solid yellow not flashing. That was also like a year ago. Without ever putting her in drive, I shut her down and go back inside. A few guys from the shop come out with the code device reader and say they are getting P0346 Cam Position Sensor Error. They state that their device won't read Audi codes to get a ton of detail, but they are thinking bad sensor. I tell them to replace what needs to be replaced, and they say its an easy fix which will be ready Friday night.
I return Friday night, and they state there is a "problem". They replaced the cam sensor and it is still idling very rough and misfiring. They said that it only misfires during idle and they are perplexed because the misfire goes away under load. What was odd to me is that I have a good relationship with this shop, as they have done all the service on my Mustang, and other vehicles we have. They were pretty quiet and aloof, only saying it was a "problem". Monday, as in tomorrow, they said they are taking the car to an Import shop. The town I live in does not have Audi, MB, BMW, or anything outside of Japanese or American cars. There is this one shop, Import Service, who are self proclaimed to specialize in Porsche, Audi, BMW, and MB. It is an independent shop. There is only this one option in this town unless I let it get hauled to the Audi dealer which scares the heck out of me given past experience with them.
My question for the experts on here are as follows, and your input is sincerely appreciated.
1) Does this sound like a death sentence for the car? Is a P0346 the end of the world?
2) Even after the belt broke and I drove the car, I never saw this code, or any check engine light, and I was fixated on the dash from starting the car to parking it in the Ford lot. Could a blown serpentine belt cause internal damage to the engine to cause a misfire?
3) I find it odd that Ford "fixed" the car, never ID'd a misfire or a check engine light, then I start it in their lot and it happens. Could the serpentine belt repair be botched by mechanics at a dealership? I realize it is not Audi, but it isn't like some random person doing it.
4) If you were in this situation, how would you proceed? If it is a death sentence, what kind of money am I looking at for repairs?
Thank you so much in advance for your help. I love the car, and would like to save her if at all possible. If I am in for many thousands of dollars though, that may be the end of the road.
12-15-2013, 07:13 PM
#2
AudiWorld Member
I am not an expert but if it's camshaft adjuster related it'll need to be put into service position to repair. The 3.0 (AVK) serpentine belt is pretty easy to remove/install on an A6 in comparison to an A4.
What happened to the tensioner arm? did the roller seize? (The 6203 bearing can be replaced after drilling out the 3 rivets and replace them with nut/bolts)
http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/R...-2RS/3850658.p
There is a TSB about an issue with the camshaft adjuster that involves upgrading the ECU software to the latest - 8E0909559E (from D) and retorque five bolts on all four camshaft adjusters to 15Nm (total of 20 bolts).
It's more work if it's leaking oil (or oil pressure not building up high enough) as the gaskets and O-rings need to be replaced. See attached PDF for more details.
If your timing belt was done at an Audi dealership I would assumed they would have performed TSB 2005581 for your if it's required? Maybe you can give them a call and ask for the service history?
Good luck with your 3.0 - 120,000 is just been broken in good...
What happened to the tensioner arm? did the roller seize? (The 6203 bearing can be replaced after drilling out the 3 rivets and replace them with nut/bolts)
http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/R...-2RS/3850658.p
There is a TSB about an issue with the camshaft adjuster that involves upgrading the ECU software to the latest - 8E0909559E (from D) and retorque five bolts on all four camshaft adjusters to 15Nm (total of 20 bolts).
It's more work if it's leaking oil (or oil pressure not building up high enough) as the gaskets and O-rings need to be replaced. See attached PDF for more details.
If your timing belt was done at an Audi dealership I would assumed they would have performed TSB 2005581 for your if it's required? Maybe you can give them a call and ask for the service history?
Good luck with your 3.0 - 120,000 is just been broken in good...
12-24-2013, 08:10 PM
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misfire P0346
This is not a death sentence I have the same car year and model and had the same thing happen what needs to be replace are the direct ignition coils and boot assembley and those only cost about $30 a piece I had all mine replaced for just under $200.00 and my car ran like a champ. I had all the same issues that your describing before I had those changed.
I have a 2003 A6 3.0L Quattro with about 120,000 miles. The car has been in the family since new in '03, and until the last two years, all service was performed at the Audi dealer it came from in Pennsylvania. All specified preventative service has been performed early or on time, including that big service where they replace the timing belt and water pump, etc. Fast forward to last week.
I brought the car out west, and quickly found out that our local Audi dealer here is shady at best. I've twice had routine service performed that required me to turn around a few miles from the dealer and bring it back. On another occasion, I was told that all four wheels needed brakes and rotors. Upon bringing it to the local Ford dealer in town who serviced my Mustang since new, it simply needed front brake pads. So, the Audi dealer 1 hour away is no longer an option for me. The next closest Audi dealer is a little over 2 hours away, and I know nothing about them.
So last Sunday, the wife is driving the Audi and calls me from a traffic light that she smells rubber burning. I ask if there are any dash lights on or if any gauges are in the red. She states everything looks fine, just smells burning rubber. I tell her to get through the light, and pull into a business parking lot as she is in a commercial area. While on the phone, and pulling off the road she hears a bang and still smells burning rubber. I tell her to shut the car off, key out of the ignition and I will come meet her. I get there, pop the hood, and the serpentine belt has broken. It was a clean break, and easily slipped out from in front of the motor. I met up the ends, and they look to match, so I don't believe there to be any debris left down inside. As it turns out, we are a half mile from my Ford dealer, so I remove the belt and crank the car. Starts fine, purrs like a kitten, though the battery indicator light is lit up on the dash. Certainly not unexpected to me with the accessory belt being snapped. I drive the car the 0.5 mile to the Ford dealer and leave the car in the lot.
Monday morning Ford calls and says the belt broke because the tensioner broke, so I need a new belt and tensioner. I authorize repairs, to which they state it will be ready Tuesday night as the parts need to come from the Audi dealer. Tuesday night rolls around and there is a "problem". They stated that once the car was put back together, the new tensioner threw a bearing, and they lost the new belt and tensioner. Stated new parts would come from Audi and my car would be ready Thursday. I take a ride over on Thursday, and the car is sitting in the "done" space. Go in to pay and they said it was a tough repair due to being cramped in there, took their mechanic twice the time it takes them to do one of their Fords, but it is fixed and everything is fine. $120 for belt, $120 for tensioner, add in labor and tax and I'm out the door at $400. I'm just happy to have the car back.
Hop in the car and crank her up. Car starts, but idles rough, and within a few seconds, the check engine light is flashing. Only ever saw check engine light once before with a bad coolant temperature sensor, and it was solid yellow not flashing. That was also like a year ago. Without ever putting her in drive, I shut her down and go back inside. A few guys from the shop come out with the code device reader and say they are getting P0346 Cam Position Sensor Error. They state that their device won't read Audi codes to get a ton of detail, but they are thinking bad sensor. I tell them to replace what needs to be replaced, and they say its an easy fix which will be ready Friday night.
I return Friday night, and they state there is a "problem". They replaced the cam sensor and it is still idling very rough and misfiring. They said that it only misfires during idle and they are perplexed because the misfire goes away under load. What was odd to me is that I have a good relationship with this shop, as they have done all the service on my Mustang, and other vehicles we have. They were pretty quiet and aloof, only saying it was a "problem". Monday, as in tomorrow, they said they are taking the car to an Import shop. The town I live in does not have Audi, MB, BMW, or anything outside of Japanese or American cars. There is this one shop, Import Service, who are self proclaimed to specialize in Porsche, Audi, BMW, and MB. It is an independent shop. There is only this one option in this town unless I let it get hauled to the Audi dealer which scares the heck out of me given past experience with them.
My question for the experts on here are as follows, and your input is sincerely appreciated.
1) Does this sound like a death sentence for the car? Is a P0346 the end of the world?
2) Even after the belt broke and I drove the car, I never saw this code, or any check engine light, and I was fixated on the dash from starting the car to parking it in the Ford lot. Could a blown serpentine belt cause internal damage to the engine to cause a misfire?
3) I find it odd that Ford "fixed" the car, never ID'd a misfire or a check engine light, then I start it in their lot and it happens. Could the serpentine belt repair be botched by mechanics at a dealership? I realize it is not Audi, but it isn't like some random person doing it.
4) If you were in this situation, how would you proceed? If it is a death sentence, what kind of money am I looking at for repairs?
Thank you so much in advance for your help. I love the car, and would like to save her if at all possible. If I am in for many thousands of dollars though, that may be the end of the road.
I brought the car out west, and quickly found out that our local Audi dealer here is shady at best. I've twice had routine service performed that required me to turn around a few miles from the dealer and bring it back. On another occasion, I was told that all four wheels needed brakes and rotors. Upon bringing it to the local Ford dealer in town who serviced my Mustang since new, it simply needed front brake pads. So, the Audi dealer 1 hour away is no longer an option for me. The next closest Audi dealer is a little over 2 hours away, and I know nothing about them.
So last Sunday, the wife is driving the Audi and calls me from a traffic light that she smells rubber burning. I ask if there are any dash lights on or if any gauges are in the red. She states everything looks fine, just smells burning rubber. I tell her to get through the light, and pull into a business parking lot as she is in a commercial area. While on the phone, and pulling off the road she hears a bang and still smells burning rubber. I tell her to shut the car off, key out of the ignition and I will come meet her. I get there, pop the hood, and the serpentine belt has broken. It was a clean break, and easily slipped out from in front of the motor. I met up the ends, and they look to match, so I don't believe there to be any debris left down inside. As it turns out, we are a half mile from my Ford dealer, so I remove the belt and crank the car. Starts fine, purrs like a kitten, though the battery indicator light is lit up on the dash. Certainly not unexpected to me with the accessory belt being snapped. I drive the car the 0.5 mile to the Ford dealer and leave the car in the lot.
Monday morning Ford calls and says the belt broke because the tensioner broke, so I need a new belt and tensioner. I authorize repairs, to which they state it will be ready Tuesday night as the parts need to come from the Audi dealer. Tuesday night rolls around and there is a "problem". They stated that once the car was put back together, the new tensioner threw a bearing, and they lost the new belt and tensioner. Stated new parts would come from Audi and my car would be ready Thursday. I take a ride over on Thursday, and the car is sitting in the "done" space. Go in to pay and they said it was a tough repair due to being cramped in there, took their mechanic twice the time it takes them to do one of their Fords, but it is fixed and everything is fine. $120 for belt, $120 for tensioner, add in labor and tax and I'm out the door at $400. I'm just happy to have the car back.
Hop in the car and crank her up. Car starts, but idles rough, and within a few seconds, the check engine light is flashing. Only ever saw check engine light once before with a bad coolant temperature sensor, and it was solid yellow not flashing. That was also like a year ago. Without ever putting her in drive, I shut her down and go back inside. A few guys from the shop come out with the code device reader and say they are getting P0346 Cam Position Sensor Error. They state that their device won't read Audi codes to get a ton of detail, but they are thinking bad sensor. I tell them to replace what needs to be replaced, and they say its an easy fix which will be ready Friday night.
I return Friday night, and they state there is a "problem". They replaced the cam sensor and it is still idling very rough and misfiring. They said that it only misfires during idle and they are perplexed because the misfire goes away under load. What was odd to me is that I have a good relationship with this shop, as they have done all the service on my Mustang, and other vehicles we have. They were pretty quiet and aloof, only saying it was a "problem". Monday, as in tomorrow, they said they are taking the car to an Import shop. The town I live in does not have Audi, MB, BMW, or anything outside of Japanese or American cars. There is this one shop, Import Service, who are self proclaimed to specialize in Porsche, Audi, BMW, and MB. It is an independent shop. There is only this one option in this town unless I let it get hauled to the Audi dealer which scares the heck out of me given past experience with them.
My question for the experts on here are as follows, and your input is sincerely appreciated.
1) Does this sound like a death sentence for the car? Is a P0346 the end of the world?
2) Even after the belt broke and I drove the car, I never saw this code, or any check engine light, and I was fixated on the dash from starting the car to parking it in the Ford lot. Could a blown serpentine belt cause internal damage to the engine to cause a misfire?
3) I find it odd that Ford "fixed" the car, never ID'd a misfire or a check engine light, then I start it in their lot and it happens. Could the serpentine belt repair be botched by mechanics at a dealership? I realize it is not Audi, but it isn't like some random person doing it.
4) If you were in this situation, how would you proceed? If it is a death sentence, what kind of money am I looking at for repairs?
Thank you so much in advance for your help. I love the car, and would like to save her if at all possible. If I am in for many thousands of dollars though, that may be the end of the road.
12-25-2013, 07:07 AM
#5
AudiWorld Super User
This is not a death sentence I have the same car year and model and had the same thing happen what needs to be replace are the direct ignition coils and boot assembley and those only cost about $30 a piece I had all mine replaced for just under $200.00 and my car ran like a champ. I had all the same issues that your describing before I had those changed.
I doubt his coils went suddenly. This is timing related, considering the car is throwing the code about CPS.
12-25-2013, 10:39 AM
#6
12-25-2013, 10:47 AM
#7
3) I find it odd that Ford "fixed" the car, never ID'd a misfire or a check engine light, then I start it in their lot and it happens. Could the serpentine belt repair be botched by mechanics at a dealership? I realize it is not Audi, but it isn't like some random person doing it.
b) Do you have a service/repair manual for this car?
c) Are you inclined to do your own repairs? If not, find a trust-worthy mechanic (Good luck with that - most of them are A$$holes!).
First Start looking at the wiring at "CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR". On my 4.2, the passenger side is towards firewall and the driver side is towards the bumper on the engine heads (about or above the level of valve covers). For its location, follow this link (2.8 engine though, but, you'll get an idea): http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ation%29-Where
Your code you mentioned requires further research as in:
16730/P0346 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G163): Implausible Signal
Possible Symptoms
Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) active
Possible Causes
Wiring from/to Camshaft Position Sensor (G163) faulty
Camshaft Position Sensor (G163) faulty
Timing misaligned
Possible Solutions
Check Wiring from/to Camshaft Position Sensor (G163)
Check Camshaft Position Sensor (G163)
Check Timing
^ Those last "Timing" related ones, I am not so sure -unless your timing belt is broke or slipped. Since you mentioned that service was performed not so long ago, it seems like a remote possibility, but could be... Serpentine belt definitely should not affect timing. I am not familiar with 3.0 engine. Regardless, why would there be a "timing belt" if serpentine belt is driving Cams...???? to drive water pump? I think NOT. So, No. IMO, timing codes are a byproduct of something else here. OR, the CPS sensor or its wiring is bad. The manual has steps to troubleshoot it. Further, it is technically possible but I am thinking it is probably not even the CPS sensor itself -because, it is a "hall-effect" sensor (look it up) and has NO mechanical contact. Plus, it is logic (5V) voltage, if I recall correctly. So, it is simple digital signal voltage and not a great deal of power driving anything... However, if the wiring was somehow compromised, you'd see the CPS errors.
Check the attached.
Last edited by tester123; 12-25-2013 at 12:02 PM.
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12-25-2013, 11:17 AM
#8
This is not a death sentence I have the same car year and model and had the same thing happen what needs to be replace are the direct ignition coils and boot assembley and those only cost about $30 a piece I had all mine replaced for just under $200.00 and my car ran like a champ. I had all the same issues that your describing before I had those changed.
For example, if your engine overheats due to a coolant leak but reservoir is full, you'll never get a error or warning that coolant is low "in engine". Simply, the engine will over heat and later may or may not throw a code regarding coolant temp sensor or something else. You get the picture? (I know this as it happened to me. 4.2 oil-cooler coolant: that pretty much says it).
Misfiring -if it is- could also set timing related codes as the ECU (main computer) is expecting certain timing info but couldn't get it, therefore sets the Crankshaft Position Sensor related code.
There might be some method to this madness (don't ask me, I don't know), however, it is quite possible that ignition coils could be issue here.
Pull all spark plug wires, check and make sure they are not damaged, making good contact and re-seat them again. Also, do the same with power connectors to modules.
You need a OBD reader to read codes and reset them to see what's coming back and what other codes are being set. They may not tell you directly but will indicate potential problem areas.
12-28-2013, 04:44 PM
#9
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Update!
First and foremost, thank you for all the replies. Obviously there are a great group of helpful Audi enthusiasts on this forum! I'm going to be sure to come back here with some frequency going forward. A lot of time has elapsed since my post, and a lot of things have happened. I'll share my story for those interested.
We pick up the story with the Ford dealer not knowing why the car has a misfire, and recommending that it goes to a specialist. The following Monday, I learn that the car is taken to an independent mechanic they trust, but not the Import shop that works on Audi's. Tuesday I get a call in the office that I need to come to their shop to discuss my options. I was in between meetings and asked to hear the diagnosis, to which their response was "we have to talk in person" - clearly I am concerned and know it will be bad news. It's a quick 5 minute drive so I head over to get the report. They said I had two options: 1) Junk yard motor installed for $5,500 or 2) Rebuild existing engine for $8,000. Remember this all started with a broken accessory belt, so I am floored. My only goal at this point is to get the car away from these people as they made a number of strange comments throughout the discussion about how nicely the car has been maintained for being an '03 and how its perfect besides the engine issues. I ask for the estimates in writing so I can decide my options and get my key from them. I return to the office, call Ford, and tell them I want the car out of there ASAP. They send a rollback and haul it away.
The next step is a third opinion from the independent shop that exclusively services Audi, BMW, etc. Ford takes it over to that shop and I wait. The shop owner calls me, and we run through the story. He states that he has worked on German cars for 30 years, and assures me that my car is in good hands. He said that he gave it a preliminary look and he is quite certain the engine is not "blown". He tells me he will do a full diagnostic in the afternoon. His diagnosis is that the timing is off. He hypothesized that when Ford did the accessory belt service, and they struggled with it as I mentioned earlier, they threw the timing off. I don't recall verbatim how he said it happened, but he felt they turned the crank accidentally or messed up something with a tensioner that moved a part which caused the timing belt to skip a tooth or two. I'll get the full run down when I get the car back.
He stated that best case scenario is a timing job at $1,100 for labor and $330 for parts (sucks as I had it done 20k miles ago) or $3k if there is head damage. He recommended that even though timing was done 20k miles ago, I still go with all new parts, water pump, etc while he is in there primarily due to the belt being stretched or possibly damaged in some way. Also, by his estimation, he was 90% sure it was simply a timing job, but hedged with 10% that there could be some other internal damage. He said he was pulling 70psi compression on most cylinders, with some other variation in readings that caused him to believe it was timing.
I return to Ford with this news, and am fully ready for a fight. Much to my surprise, they said they would pay everything in full to get the car back to how it was before! They said that it pains them to spend the money when they have their own shop full of mechanics, but felt that since they probably screwed it up in the first place, that they would let the other shop handle it. Victory!
With this week being Christmas week, my car has been sitting. The Indy shop said it would be worked on the week after Christmas. Technically I'm not out of the woods yet, but take comfort in the Indy shop owner highly confident that it is simply a timing issue. He is going to do the full timing service, belt, water pumper, tensioners, and all that stuff. Is there anything else you all think I should have him do while he has it apart?
Again - thanks for all the input of the group! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the timing fix will get her back to perfect working order.
We pick up the story with the Ford dealer not knowing why the car has a misfire, and recommending that it goes to a specialist. The following Monday, I learn that the car is taken to an independent mechanic they trust, but not the Import shop that works on Audi's. Tuesday I get a call in the office that I need to come to their shop to discuss my options. I was in between meetings and asked to hear the diagnosis, to which their response was "we have to talk in person" - clearly I am concerned and know it will be bad news. It's a quick 5 minute drive so I head over to get the report. They said I had two options: 1) Junk yard motor installed for $5,500 or 2) Rebuild existing engine for $8,000. Remember this all started with a broken accessory belt, so I am floored. My only goal at this point is to get the car away from these people as they made a number of strange comments throughout the discussion about how nicely the car has been maintained for being an '03 and how its perfect besides the engine issues. I ask for the estimates in writing so I can decide my options and get my key from them. I return to the office, call Ford, and tell them I want the car out of there ASAP. They send a rollback and haul it away.
The next step is a third opinion from the independent shop that exclusively services Audi, BMW, etc. Ford takes it over to that shop and I wait. The shop owner calls me, and we run through the story. He states that he has worked on German cars for 30 years, and assures me that my car is in good hands. He said that he gave it a preliminary look and he is quite certain the engine is not "blown". He tells me he will do a full diagnostic in the afternoon. His diagnosis is that the timing is off. He hypothesized that when Ford did the accessory belt service, and they struggled with it as I mentioned earlier, they threw the timing off. I don't recall verbatim how he said it happened, but he felt they turned the crank accidentally or messed up something with a tensioner that moved a part which caused the timing belt to skip a tooth or two. I'll get the full run down when I get the car back.
He stated that best case scenario is a timing job at $1,100 for labor and $330 for parts (sucks as I had it done 20k miles ago) or $3k if there is head damage. He recommended that even though timing was done 20k miles ago, I still go with all new parts, water pump, etc while he is in there primarily due to the belt being stretched or possibly damaged in some way. Also, by his estimation, he was 90% sure it was simply a timing job, but hedged with 10% that there could be some other internal damage. He said he was pulling 70psi compression on most cylinders, with some other variation in readings that caused him to believe it was timing.
I return to Ford with this news, and am fully ready for a fight. Much to my surprise, they said they would pay everything in full to get the car back to how it was before! They said that it pains them to spend the money when they have their own shop full of mechanics, but felt that since they probably screwed it up in the first place, that they would let the other shop handle it. Victory!
With this week being Christmas week, my car has been sitting. The Indy shop said it would be worked on the week after Christmas. Technically I'm not out of the woods yet, but take comfort in the Indy shop owner highly confident that it is simply a timing issue. He is going to do the full timing service, belt, water pumper, tensioners, and all that stuff. Is there anything else you all think I should have him do while he has it apart?
Again - thanks for all the input of the group! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the timing fix will get her back to perfect working order.
12-28-2013, 05:14 PM
#10
Probably needs a few valves. A rebuild or replace is crazy without looking.
I think the most fair solution would be for you to pay for the parts to replace the timing belt stuff ($300ish) and they should pay for the head gasket(s), valve(s) and labor.
$300ish out of your pocket because you get a new timing belt service.
I think the most fair solution would be for you to pay for the parts to replace the timing belt stuff ($300ish) and they should pay for the head gasket(s), valve(s) and labor.
$300ish out of your pocket because you get a new timing belt service.
