Buying 2.7T with 150k miles
04-13-2011, 01:32 AM
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Buying 2.7T with 150k miles
I was offered to buy a family members 2000 A6 2.7T with 150k miles on the ODO for $2500.
A few things:
1. The car is due for a timing belt.
2. The front control arm bushings are squeaking and control arms move slightly when prying with a prybar. I could replace the control arms myself.
3. The right rear quarter panel was hit between the door and fuel door. I feel comfortable fixing this myself. The owner's insurance gave him $4000 for this damage, but he has decided to sell the car under book price and he is buying an S4.
4. Owner is willing to work with me on price because of the timing belt and control arm bushings. Probably would come down no more than $500 to $700 off of the $2500.
5. Original turbos are in the car.
6. New 2Bennett performance clutch/ pressure plate 1000 miles ago.
7. Chipped
8. Rear competition swaybar installed.
The car is very clean inside and out other than the right rear damage. The owner (my uncle) has always owned Audis, does his own general maintenance and has always had the car serviced for major maintenance like timing belt and clutch at Audi specialists.
Oil has been changed without exception between 3k and 5k miles throughout the car's life and only synthetic oil used. The car is never put away hot after turbo use - idled for a few minutes before shut down.
My main concern is the turbos and mileage. I am mechanically capable of doing most of the work on the car, but realistically with a family, sports and hobbies, I will not have a 40 hour chunk of time and would have to pay someone else to do the big jobs. This means that if the turbos go out, I will probably scrap the car, as I can't imagine it would be worth throwing $5k at it.
Is it unheard of for Audi turbos to go for 250K miles or is it likely I would be facing this expense in the next 20k miles or so?
I love the way the car drives, the power and the style of the car. As my high mileage daily driver is on it's way out, I have been starting to look around for my next car, and then this came up. I did not plan on considering a $2500 car with high mileage, but this option fell in my lap. If I could get 3 or 4 years out of it, I would be able to save up for a much newer, lower mileage car then.
I'd be interested in opinions!
Thanks,
Craig
A few things:
1. The car is due for a timing belt.
2. The front control arm bushings are squeaking and control arms move slightly when prying with a prybar. I could replace the control arms myself.
3. The right rear quarter panel was hit between the door and fuel door. I feel comfortable fixing this myself. The owner's insurance gave him $4000 for this damage, but he has decided to sell the car under book price and he is buying an S4.
4. Owner is willing to work with me on price because of the timing belt and control arm bushings. Probably would come down no more than $500 to $700 off of the $2500.
5. Original turbos are in the car.
6. New 2Bennett performance clutch/ pressure plate 1000 miles ago.
7. Chipped
8. Rear competition swaybar installed.
The car is very clean inside and out other than the right rear damage. The owner (my uncle) has always owned Audis, does his own general maintenance and has always had the car serviced for major maintenance like timing belt and clutch at Audi specialists.
Oil has been changed without exception between 3k and 5k miles throughout the car's life and only synthetic oil used. The car is never put away hot after turbo use - idled for a few minutes before shut down.
My main concern is the turbos and mileage. I am mechanically capable of doing most of the work on the car, but realistically with a family, sports and hobbies, I will not have a 40 hour chunk of time and would have to pay someone else to do the big jobs. This means that if the turbos go out, I will probably scrap the car, as I can't imagine it would be worth throwing $5k at it.
Is it unheard of for Audi turbos to go for 250K miles or is it likely I would be facing this expense in the next 20k miles or so?
I love the way the car drives, the power and the style of the car. As my high mileage daily driver is on it's way out, I have been starting to look around for my next car, and then this came up. I did not plan on considering a $2500 car with high mileage, but this option fell in my lap. If I could get 3 or 4 years out of it, I would be able to save up for a much newer, lower mileage car then.
I'd be interested in opinions!
Thanks,
Craig
04-13-2011, 03:41 AM
#3
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If the turbos are good now, it's unlikely to fail within 20K miles. 50K, another story.
But every 20K you go, the likelihood of another 20K improves. Far more likely to have random vacuum hose and throttle body boot failure with boosted engine(s).
The TB service will likely run 1500 or so by the time you get done with tensioners, pulleys, serp belt and water pump. Front UCA, TRE (both inner and outer) are likely. Have you checked the brakes and rotors? If you don't do them yourself it's expensive to have the dealer do it. Figure about 400 do brakes and rotors yourself. You'll need a special tool to screw in the rear caliper pistons but you can often borrow/rent it from Autozone or wherever. Tires, too.
When someone dumps a 150K car you can bet there's about 2G worth of work to be done...
Overall, the Price seems good, but it will probably cost a G to fix the rear quarter panel. Shop around, it's not like it's made of aluminum.
At this point if the transmission oil hasn't been changed it needs to be changed...not flushed, just fluid dropped, pan dropped, filter changed, fluid added.
LOL...this car IS going to be your hobby.
But every 20K you go, the likelihood of another 20K improves. Far more likely to have random vacuum hose and throttle body boot failure with boosted engine(s).
The TB service will likely run 1500 or so by the time you get done with tensioners, pulleys, serp belt and water pump. Front UCA, TRE (both inner and outer) are likely. Have you checked the brakes and rotors? If you don't do them yourself it's expensive to have the dealer do it. Figure about 400 do brakes and rotors yourself. You'll need a special tool to screw in the rear caliper pistons but you can often borrow/rent it from Autozone or wherever. Tires, too.
When someone dumps a 150K car you can bet there's about 2G worth of work to be done...
Overall, the Price seems good, but it will probably cost a G to fix the rear quarter panel. Shop around, it's not like it's made of aluminum.
At this point if the transmission oil hasn't been changed it needs to be changed...not flushed, just fluid dropped, pan dropped, filter changed, fluid added.
LOL...this car IS going to be your hobby.
04-13-2011, 05:25 AM
#4
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as mentioned above, if the car was maintained you should be good. but no guarantees! but this could very well be a hobby car as with any Audi at 150k it will be needing some upkeep, parts are not bad but paying for labor gets expensive! if you can do the work yourself you should have a good car. I just bought one with 160k on it, it needed a bunch of sensors, and 2 control arms, dealer estimate on the car was between $1500 and 4000 in repairs (possibly needed a turbo), but the turbo's are good and it now runs great, some of the needed sensors were a pain to change but, I think I put $400 in the car.
04-13-2011, 07:41 AM
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Thanks for the insight. I know that the car has been maintained to probably a higher standard than the factory maintenance/ service schedule, so in this respect I feel better about this one than I potentially would about an A6 on Craigslist with 80K on the clock from a stranger.
Another bonus is that my uncle has a home shop with a lift and he has done control arms and many other repairs on Audis over the years, and he will help me replace the arms if I buy the car.
Really, what I'm looking for from this car is to get me 2 or 3 years down the road, at which time I wouldn't feel bad selling it for a grand and then spending $10k plus on a low mileage car. It sounds from what people are saying that this is probably realistic if I take care of the car and don't flog it too hard. I won't be autocrossing it, but do enjoy a fast drive around winding, hilly roads now and then. Mostly however, it will be a commuter and will see about 10k miles per year maximum.
The first job I will have done if I buy it is the timing belt (and related components) and I've already been quoted $1200 from 2 local shops. 2Bennett Audimotive (a performance Audi specialist about an hour from me) quoted $1400 for the job and their labor rate is $30 less per hour than the local shops. I'm sure there is a reason for the higher quote. Perhaps higher quality water pump, belts, tensioners and pulleys - ?? I'll check into it.
The bottom line is that the car will be a $3500 - $4000 car by the time I'm done with the timing belt and control arm work. I'll do the body work myself, so cost will be negligible.
I don't think any shop is going to come in under $2500 for the rear quarter repair. Because of the skin panel inside the wheel well, the outer panel is not accessible to bang out the dents, so it would have to be cut out and a replacement panel cut to size and welded in. I'll just pull it with a slide hammer to get it close and use a good quality filler followed by high build primer, wet sand and paint. I have done this before on a car that was not worth spending thousands on and the end result was nearly perfect and there was no outside visible indication it had been damaged in the first place. This of course would not be an acceptable repair from a body shop's perspective, but it's not even a $4000 car!
Brake pads and rotors are good. New front tires last week and rears have 70% on them. I would do my own brake work, and if I don't have the tool (or my uncle does not) I would rent it. I would obviously be purchasing a good service manual. I'm assuming there is a better one than Haynes?
Thanks
Another bonus is that my uncle has a home shop with a lift and he has done control arms and many other repairs on Audis over the years, and he will help me replace the arms if I buy the car.
Really, what I'm looking for from this car is to get me 2 or 3 years down the road, at which time I wouldn't feel bad selling it for a grand and then spending $10k plus on a low mileage car. It sounds from what people are saying that this is probably realistic if I take care of the car and don't flog it too hard. I won't be autocrossing it, but do enjoy a fast drive around winding, hilly roads now and then. Mostly however, it will be a commuter and will see about 10k miles per year maximum.
The first job I will have done if I buy it is the timing belt (and related components) and I've already been quoted $1200 from 2 local shops. 2Bennett Audimotive (a performance Audi specialist about an hour from me) quoted $1400 for the job and their labor rate is $30 less per hour than the local shops. I'm sure there is a reason for the higher quote. Perhaps higher quality water pump, belts, tensioners and pulleys - ?? I'll check into it.
The bottom line is that the car will be a $3500 - $4000 car by the time I'm done with the timing belt and control arm work. I'll do the body work myself, so cost will be negligible.
I don't think any shop is going to come in under $2500 for the rear quarter repair. Because of the skin panel inside the wheel well, the outer panel is not accessible to bang out the dents, so it would have to be cut out and a replacement panel cut to size and welded in. I'll just pull it with a slide hammer to get it close and use a good quality filler followed by high build primer, wet sand and paint. I have done this before on a car that was not worth spending thousands on and the end result was nearly perfect and there was no outside visible indication it had been damaged in the first place. This of course would not be an acceptable repair from a body shop's perspective, but it's not even a $4000 car!
Brake pads and rotors are good. New front tires last week and rears have 70% on them. I would do my own brake work, and if I don't have the tool (or my uncle does not) I would rent it. I would obviously be purchasing a good service manual. I'm assuming there is a better one than Haynes?
Thanks
04-13-2011, 08:11 AM
#6
Just some more info - I think what everyone else has said has been great. I have a 2004 with 150,000 and my mom has a 2001 with about 150-155,000. I'm doing the TB service on her car and got into pulling the cams to fix an oil leak, etc. and that turned into a bit more than I expected, as documented in some other threads here.
Other than that, these cars need maintanence, and maintanence costs $$$. At 150,000 miles though, I can tell you that both cars run great and my mom's car, which was poorly maintained until she had about 100,000 on it, will be great once I get the work done that I need to. I have no doubt that getting 250,000 or 300,000 out of either of our cars is not going to be a problem.
Good luck.
Other than that, these cars need maintanence, and maintanence costs $$$. At 150,000 miles though, I can tell you that both cars run great and my mom's car, which was poorly maintained until she had about 100,000 on it, will be great once I get the work done that I need to. I have no doubt that getting 250,000 or 300,000 out of either of our cars is not going to be a problem.
Good luck.
04-14-2011, 09:55 PM
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jseklund, I read your posts about your experiences with the cam and crank positions. Wow, what a hassle! Kudos to you for tackling that job though.
I'm now considering doing the timing belt job myself if I buy the car - which I'm leaning toward right now, depending on if I find oil seeping out of the turbos or not. I'll make sure to insert the crank pin and rent the cam lock tools!
I hope things work out as I'm really liking the car!
I'm now considering doing the timing belt job myself if I buy the car - which I'm leaning toward right now, depending on if I find oil seeping out of the turbos or not. I'll make sure to insert the crank pin and rent the cam lock tools!
I hope things work out as I'm really liking the car!
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04-15-2011, 05:33 AM
#9
isleblue,
Thanks for the compliment, but it became more of a necessity than a decision. I have been planning on doing this timing belt change for my mom for 6-8 months. I knew the cam shaft seals were most likely what was leaking oil, and that I should do the timing belt to get to them. I spent A LOT of time researching the timing belt and valve cover seal replacement on this board, in the Bentley, etc.
Honestly, the timing belt job itself is not that big a deal. I could have finished that in 2 days easy the first time. Doing the valve covers and then finding scored cams, and not using the locking pin is what has kept the car down for over 2 weeks!!
If I hadn't screwed up with the timing and had the head in my possession a week ago, I'd have been done long ago...but as I got into the heads, I realized there were problems that should be corrected and that I had tweaked the timing. I was a bit over my head - but I couldn't exactly bring it anywhere to get it fixed with the front end hanging off, all my time already spent, etc. I had not choice but to fix it, right?
The real credit in my case goes to 4Driver4, Peter Badore, 2.7LTurbo, and Johnkk. These guys bailed me out big time - I hope I can repay the favor in the future (whether to them directly or to others on this board) now that I have some experience with this.
But yes, use the lockpin
Other than that, I think you'll be very happy with the car, if you know what to expect. People get up in arms over maintanence, and it can be expensive on the Audis, but it's expensive on EVERY car. I'd rather have a 5 year old audi with $1000/year in repair costs than a brand new car with $750/year in repairs and $2500/year in loan payments. If you do the maintanence, it should be reliable to AT LEAST 250,000 IMO.
Thanks for the compliment, but it became more of a necessity than a decision. I have been planning on doing this timing belt change for my mom for 6-8 months. I knew the cam shaft seals were most likely what was leaking oil, and that I should do the timing belt to get to them. I spent A LOT of time researching the timing belt and valve cover seal replacement on this board, in the Bentley, etc.
Honestly, the timing belt job itself is not that big a deal. I could have finished that in 2 days easy the first time. Doing the valve covers and then finding scored cams, and not using the locking pin is what has kept the car down for over 2 weeks!!
If I hadn't screwed up with the timing and had the head in my possession a week ago, I'd have been done long ago...but as I got into the heads, I realized there were problems that should be corrected and that I had tweaked the timing. I was a bit over my head - but I couldn't exactly bring it anywhere to get it fixed with the front end hanging off, all my time already spent, etc. I had not choice but to fix it, right?
The real credit in my case goes to 4Driver4, Peter Badore, 2.7LTurbo, and Johnkk. These guys bailed me out big time - I hope I can repay the favor in the future (whether to them directly or to others on this board) now that I have some experience with this.
But yes, use the lockpin
Other than that, I think you'll be very happy with the car, if you know what to expect. People get up in arms over maintanence, and it can be expensive on the Audis, but it's expensive on EVERY car. I'd rather have a 5 year old audi with $1000/year in repair costs than a brand new car with $750/year in repairs and $2500/year in loan payments. If you do the maintanence, it should be reliable to AT LEAST 250,000 IMO.
04-15-2011, 05:07 PM
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I couldn't find the thread I saw that described how to check turbos by finding out if there was oil that had started to appear around a seal or in a hose or something (?) But it was my understanding that one sign they were going was a seal beginning to fail. No?
How would one do a quick check on turbo condition when inspecting a used car?
These turbos in the car I'm considering are quiet and boost 'feels' fine, but I have not checked with a gauge/ meter.
Jseklund, I agree with what you are saying about car payment and lower maintenance, probably on a car that is not very enjoyable to drive or own. Case in point, I drive a very reliable Camry with 225k on the clock right now, but it has zero personality and is very boring to drive. My hobby car is a RHD Australian '65 Morris Mini Cooper S which has loads of character and is fun to drive and work on. That car is very labor intensive based on miles driven. The Audi will be somewhere in-between as far as maintenance required, but it is worth spending a little more time maintaining a car that is fun to drive and nice to look at!
Glad to hear that this site has been a helpful resource, as I am already finding. As a soon to be owner of an A6, I'm looking forward to learning a lot about the car from folks on here and eventually having something to contribute to the discussion.
How would one do a quick check on turbo condition when inspecting a used car?
These turbos in the car I'm considering are quiet and boost 'feels' fine, but I have not checked with a gauge/ meter.
Jseklund, I agree with what you are saying about car payment and lower maintenance, probably on a car that is not very enjoyable to drive or own. Case in point, I drive a very reliable Camry with 225k on the clock right now, but it has zero personality and is very boring to drive. My hobby car is a RHD Australian '65 Morris Mini Cooper S which has loads of character and is fun to drive and work on. That car is very labor intensive based on miles driven. The Audi will be somewhere in-between as far as maintenance required, but it is worth spending a little more time maintaining a car that is fun to drive and nice to look at!
Glad to hear that this site has been a helpful resource, as I am already finding. As a soon to be owner of an A6, I'm looking forward to learning a lot about the car from folks on here and eventually having something to contribute to the discussion.