S6 vs. Tesla Model S
02-25-2013, 06:16 PM
#81
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To the OP, as I prepare to write a nose bleeding check to the IRS, you're welcome. O, my mistake. You never thanked me for bankrolling your ride.
If that makes me an ***, well everyone has one.
If that makes me an ***, well everyone has one.
02-25-2013, 06:33 PM
#82
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Cracks me up, I have been using the word for years, and never bothered to look it up. 
Apparently, Apple thinks it is a word too as the iPad dictionary recognizes it too. But I am a rebel. My daughter is a journalism major, and reminds me frequently that the style guides say there are not supposed to be two spaces after a period. But I was trained to put them there, and I refuse to change. In fact, I find paragraphs without two spaces after periods to be hard to read.
Re: Tesla, I think they have brought a creative and desirable car to market, but unless you have over 100g to drop on a part time vehicle, it is not very practical. My driving habits would not be conducive to the model S as anything more than a "fun" car.
Apparently, Apple thinks it is a word too as the iPad dictionary recognizes it too. But I am a rebel. My daughter is a journalism major, and reminds me frequently that the style guides say there are not supposed to be two spaces after a period. But I was trained to put them there, and I refuse to change. In fact, I find paragraphs without two spaces after periods to be hard to read. Re: Tesla, I think they have brought a creative and desirable car to market, but unless you have over 100g to drop on a part time vehicle, it is not very practical. My driving habits would not be conducive to the model S as anything more than a "fun" car.
As for the Tesla, I agree 100%. I can't imagine futzing around with looking for a power station on a trip and twiddling my thumbs while the car is charging up. There's enough other stuff that goes into the planning for a long drive without driving out of your way to keep it going. Also, how long will the batteries really last and how much money will it require to replace them? What happens if Tesla bellies up like so many other niche car companies have in the past? In my opinion, the Tesla is not ready for prime time - for the price, it's not a value proposition and entails too much risk. Unless you've got money to burn for an expensive trip to the grocery store toy.
02-25-2013, 08:00 PM
#83
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I’ve been driving my Tesla Model S for about two months now.
Range
The EPA range is 265 miles, and while some Floridians were able to get 423 miles out of their Tesla, my real range seems like it will be much smaller. I use up about 4 miles of EPA rated range for every 3 miles I drive, so I’m looking at about 200 miles of range. This isn’t especially unique to my Tesla, as I never got anywhere near the MPG rating on my SLK32 AMG, either. Driving a supercar like a supercar isn’t good for efficiency.
200 miles is plenty, though. I can get to work and back, and then also drive to San Francisco (an hour away) if I want, no problem. There aren’t many scenarios where I drive 200 miles in a day that doesn’t qualify as a “road trip”. I basically never look at my range, because I always have enough. I never worry that I’m running late and need to stop at a gas station because my car is low on energy; my car always has sufficient energy.
Road trips would be a different story. I’ll go on maybe two road trips a year. Many Tesla owners will go on about how it’s no problem to do it, and it’s great because you [often] don’t pay for energy, and yada yada, but the fact remains that you can’t get where you want to go as quickly as you could with gasoline, nor can you do it without some advance planning. This doesn’t bother me much. For the handful of days a year I go on a road trip, I can take the wife’s car. As long as that’s a reasonable option (and not an underpowered 4-banger), the other 360 days a year, I want to be driving the car that’s the most fun for me to be driving 360 days a year.
New York Times Kerfuffle
Earlier in this thread someone noted the New York Times article where the reporter, Broder, claimed he was freezing, driving at 45 mph, and still ran out of charge.
Tesla claimed that Broder was being sensationalist by publishing a sensationalist blog here:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/most...iar-test-drive
Broder did a reasonable job of responding to most of Tesla’s charges, making Tesla look whiny.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013...hat-it-doesnt/
Still, Broder attempts some absolutely ridiculous excuses in his rebuttal. When he claims he set the cruise control at 45 mph, but the Tesla logs show the car was set at 60 mph, he tries to argue that the difference is due to the factory installed 245/45R19 wheels instead of the 245/35R21 wheels. And when his car went over 80 mph, he claims that’s because “Most drivers are aware that cars can speed up, even sometimes when cruise control is engaged, on downhill stretches.” Really? On I-95 in Connecticut (which isn’t the Rockies) in a car that freely uses regenerative braking with cruise control is engaged, he’s claiming that the car went 20+ mph faster than its set point?
The thing is, Broder had a good story without fudging the data. As noted above, 200 miles from the Delaware supercharger to the Connecticut supercharger requires driving the car a bit more conservatively than many would want. It requires planning. It requires waiting an hour at the rest stop (although why he felt the need to say he charged for 58 minutes when he really only charged for 47 minutes is beyond me).
CNN did the same trip, and while loving the car, did note “Driving a fully electric car a long, long way still requires forethought, planning and commitment. “
http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/15/auto...ons/index.html
Interior
I like the interior of the Audi better.
The 17” touchscreen is cool, it’s easy to engineer, it’s easy to update functionality, and it has some neat abilities, like the ability to surf the web [hopefully when you’re not actually driving].
However, it’s really not the easiest way to do many mundane things that are easy to do with physical buttons (e.g., control the fan speed).
Tesla is still lacking many things that should really be standard in a $100k car. Parking sensors and adaptive cruise control top the list. They’re still say that they hope they can retrofit this stuff into my car in the future, but they don’t have it now, and I distrust this claim.
New Manufacturer Hiccups
My car is not perfect. One of the speakers can rattle a bit when playing Internet Radio or off of a USB stick. It’s fine when I play the Radio or when streaming from my phone, so it’s not a crisis, but it’s a problem. There are a couple other minor things. Tesla still owes me a spoiler, so I’m waiting until that comes in before I ask them to fix many of the little things that are mildly irksome. If you’re not willing to forgive a few startup issues, Tesla would probably be a poor choice right now.
Uniqueness
The S6 is a beautiful car, but it doesn’t attract as much attention as a Tesla. If you prefer it that way, Audi is a better choice. If you want folks at work asking you about your car, Tesla is a better choice.
Performance
I enjoy flooring it much more in my silent new car than I did in my previous gasoline car. The roar of the engine made me feel like I was shouting out “hey everyone look at me”, while the new silence makes me just enjoy the daily roller coaster ride. I still enjoy instantaneous power when hitting the pedal. The S6 shifts incredibly quickly, but nothing is faster than not shifting.
The car really is a hot performer. Here’s the latest road and track article:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...-tesla-model-s
Tesla’s longevity
Some posts question whether Audi will be able to kick Tesla out of the market when they decide to build an EV. I don’t think so. Tesla has a long head start on their EV technology, and it would be difficult for another car manufacturer to copy it without stepping on Tesla’s intellectual property. Daimler and Toyota are both partnering with Tesla to build some of Tesla’s technology into their cars moving forward. I think this makes a lot of sense. Audi’s S6 is one of the best engine/transmissions in the world for under $100k, and yet if they removed that engine and put in a Tesla drive train, I’d prefer to be driving the Audi electric than a Tesla electric (see above note on Audi’s interior being better).
Anyway, while Tesla might get bought by an experienced car manufacturer, I think it will be some time before an experienced car manufacturer is going to be able to come out with their own electric drive train that can rival Tesla’s.
Price
I did pay $100,500 for my car. I’ll get back $10k in refunds from the U.S. and from California. I’ll also save about $2,000 per year in energy. I don’t care whether you think the subsidies are bad public policy or not; the subsidies are there and I think it would be foolish to ignore them (just as I think it’s foolish for folks on the Tesla forums to tell me that it’s my duty as a citizen of the world to buy an EV no matter the price premium over a car that causes more CO2 emissions). After the refunds and energy savings, I think the Model S (P85) price is similar to the S6 price. Did I want a car from an established manufacturer that can be quickly refueled and has a better interior and more features (like adaptive cruise control), or did I want a car that fills up at home, silently accelerates, and never needs to shift?
Summary
I’ll never know if I made the right decision to buy a Tesla instead of an Audi.
For now, I can tell you that I’m enjoying driving my Tesla far more than I enjoyed driving my previous car.
Take care,
Derek
Range
The EPA range is 265 miles, and while some Floridians were able to get 423 miles out of their Tesla, my real range seems like it will be much smaller. I use up about 4 miles of EPA rated range for every 3 miles I drive, so I’m looking at about 200 miles of range. This isn’t especially unique to my Tesla, as I never got anywhere near the MPG rating on my SLK32 AMG, either. Driving a supercar like a supercar isn’t good for efficiency.
200 miles is plenty, though. I can get to work and back, and then also drive to San Francisco (an hour away) if I want, no problem. There aren’t many scenarios where I drive 200 miles in a day that doesn’t qualify as a “road trip”. I basically never look at my range, because I always have enough. I never worry that I’m running late and need to stop at a gas station because my car is low on energy; my car always has sufficient energy.
Road trips would be a different story. I’ll go on maybe two road trips a year. Many Tesla owners will go on about how it’s no problem to do it, and it’s great because you [often] don’t pay for energy, and yada yada, but the fact remains that you can’t get where you want to go as quickly as you could with gasoline, nor can you do it without some advance planning. This doesn’t bother me much. For the handful of days a year I go on a road trip, I can take the wife’s car. As long as that’s a reasonable option (and not an underpowered 4-banger), the other 360 days a year, I want to be driving the car that’s the most fun for me to be driving 360 days a year.
New York Times Kerfuffle
Earlier in this thread someone noted the New York Times article where the reporter, Broder, claimed he was freezing, driving at 45 mph, and still ran out of charge.
Tesla claimed that Broder was being sensationalist by publishing a sensationalist blog here:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/most...iar-test-drive
Broder did a reasonable job of responding to most of Tesla’s charges, making Tesla look whiny.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013...hat-it-doesnt/
Still, Broder attempts some absolutely ridiculous excuses in his rebuttal. When he claims he set the cruise control at 45 mph, but the Tesla logs show the car was set at 60 mph, he tries to argue that the difference is due to the factory installed 245/45R19 wheels instead of the 245/35R21 wheels. And when his car went over 80 mph, he claims that’s because “Most drivers are aware that cars can speed up, even sometimes when cruise control is engaged, on downhill stretches.” Really? On I-95 in Connecticut (which isn’t the Rockies) in a car that freely uses regenerative braking with cruise control is engaged, he’s claiming that the car went 20+ mph faster than its set point?
The thing is, Broder had a good story without fudging the data. As noted above, 200 miles from the Delaware supercharger to the Connecticut supercharger requires driving the car a bit more conservatively than many would want. It requires planning. It requires waiting an hour at the rest stop (although why he felt the need to say he charged for 58 minutes when he really only charged for 47 minutes is beyond me).
CNN did the same trip, and while loving the car, did note “Driving a fully electric car a long, long way still requires forethought, planning and commitment. “
http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/15/auto...ons/index.html
Interior
I like the interior of the Audi better.
The 17” touchscreen is cool, it’s easy to engineer, it’s easy to update functionality, and it has some neat abilities, like the ability to surf the web [hopefully when you’re not actually driving].
However, it’s really not the easiest way to do many mundane things that are easy to do with physical buttons (e.g., control the fan speed).
Tesla is still lacking many things that should really be standard in a $100k car. Parking sensors and adaptive cruise control top the list. They’re still say that they hope they can retrofit this stuff into my car in the future, but they don’t have it now, and I distrust this claim.
New Manufacturer Hiccups
My car is not perfect. One of the speakers can rattle a bit when playing Internet Radio or off of a USB stick. It’s fine when I play the Radio or when streaming from my phone, so it’s not a crisis, but it’s a problem. There are a couple other minor things. Tesla still owes me a spoiler, so I’m waiting until that comes in before I ask them to fix many of the little things that are mildly irksome. If you’re not willing to forgive a few startup issues, Tesla would probably be a poor choice right now.
Uniqueness
The S6 is a beautiful car, but it doesn’t attract as much attention as a Tesla. If you prefer it that way, Audi is a better choice. If you want folks at work asking you about your car, Tesla is a better choice.
Performance
I enjoy flooring it much more in my silent new car than I did in my previous gasoline car. The roar of the engine made me feel like I was shouting out “hey everyone look at me”, while the new silence makes me just enjoy the daily roller coaster ride. I still enjoy instantaneous power when hitting the pedal. The S6 shifts incredibly quickly, but nothing is faster than not shifting.
The car really is a hot performer. Here’s the latest road and track article:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...-tesla-model-s
Tesla’s longevity
Some posts question whether Audi will be able to kick Tesla out of the market when they decide to build an EV. I don’t think so. Tesla has a long head start on their EV technology, and it would be difficult for another car manufacturer to copy it without stepping on Tesla’s intellectual property. Daimler and Toyota are both partnering with Tesla to build some of Tesla’s technology into their cars moving forward. I think this makes a lot of sense. Audi’s S6 is one of the best engine/transmissions in the world for under $100k, and yet if they removed that engine and put in a Tesla drive train, I’d prefer to be driving the Audi electric than a Tesla electric (see above note on Audi’s interior being better).
Anyway, while Tesla might get bought by an experienced car manufacturer, I think it will be some time before an experienced car manufacturer is going to be able to come out with their own electric drive train that can rival Tesla’s.
Price
I did pay $100,500 for my car. I’ll get back $10k in refunds from the U.S. and from California. I’ll also save about $2,000 per year in energy. I don’t care whether you think the subsidies are bad public policy or not; the subsidies are there and I think it would be foolish to ignore them (just as I think it’s foolish for folks on the Tesla forums to tell me that it’s my duty as a citizen of the world to buy an EV no matter the price premium over a car that causes more CO2 emissions). After the refunds and energy savings, I think the Model S (P85) price is similar to the S6 price. Did I want a car from an established manufacturer that can be quickly refueled and has a better interior and more features (like adaptive cruise control), or did I want a car that fills up at home, silently accelerates, and never needs to shift?
Summary
I’ll never know if I made the right decision to buy a Tesla instead of an Audi.
For now, I can tell you that I’m enjoying driving my Tesla far more than I enjoyed driving my previous car.
Take care,
Derek
While the Tesla still isn't the right car for me (too many road trips), it sounds like it is more than working out for you. It is definitely a looker too. I would love to drive one to experience the performance - it has to be a kick in the seat of the pants.
I don't know about anyone else, but to me your start up issues seem pretty minor. My A6 (not S6 unfortunately) has been nearly perfect, but that is my expectation of a manufacturer as entrenched as Audi.
Appreciate you taking the time to come back to report your experience...
02-25-2013, 09:44 PM
#84
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https://www.audiworld.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=53
You could decide to take advantage of the same tax credit if you want. There are all kinds of tax breaks that others get that I don't get and they don't thank me for those. I never asked for the tax credit. Somebody thought it was good public policy to encourage the USA to move away from cars powered by foreign oil, and that encouragement made an electric vehicle more attractive to me than the Audi S6.
If you want to compare our federal tax liabilities for 2012, feel free to PM me.
[ir]Regardless (sorry, I had to), the tax code exists and there's not much that I can do to change it. I just need to make the most sensible decisions for me given what it is even if that creates global market inefficiencies.
02-26-2013, 12:34 AM
#85
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My taxes payed for Iraq and Afghanistan, and for oil industry subsidies to the tune of billions of dollars. You're welcome for my contribution to securing cheap oil for your cars ... no need to thank me specifically.
02-27-2013, 11:53 AM
#86
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Derek,
Kudos to you for coming back and posting. I think your situation and assessment nicely highlights the caveats of owning an all-electric vehicle. For those that don't mind the hassle and like the "wow factor" or "coolness" factor AND whose operational profile and geographic location fit . . . it's a really cool and interesting piece of technology to sit in / drive every day. Personally, my geographic location, my use profile as well as the hassle factor of having to plan ahead wouldn't sit well with me . . . but that's why we have choice. I'm glad you like your car, and on some level I'm glad *someone* is buying Tesla cars, because new tech can never get "from here to there" without early adopters. I'm not too keen on the whole gov't subsidy thing, but as you rightly point out, there are a LOT of subsidies out that that *most* of us don't benefit from. At least I can get behind (a little) a subsidy aimed at automotive technology.
I'm no industry analyst (for automotive), but my *guess* would be that at some point, Tesla is going to turn into an IP licensing firm. If, as you suggest, other car makers can't work around Tesla's IP, and it's vastly superior to what they can come up with on their own, they'll either buy Tesla or license the tech (and it will likely be in Tesla's interest to license it). Why? Well, when you consider what a tremendous undertaking it is to build a car, the power train is really only one part of the equation. Not a small part, but not overly dominant either. Styling, quality, brand, interiors, warranty, support, parts, etc. are all huge activities in and of themselves. So far, Tesla has side-stepped many of these activities by remaining a niche player that is still in the first few years of its existence. The longer they're around, frankly, the more of an issue some of these arenas become. In my opinion, it boils down to this: is it likely that Tesla will master what it has taken auto manufacturers 50+ years to master more quickly and effectively than auto manufactures can mimic or work around Tesla's IP. I'd posit that Tesla could work at the aforementioned for 10 years and still be pretty immature (relative to established brands), while I don't think that a GM, Ford, Toyota, BMW or PAG will need 10 years to work around Tesla's drive train tech.
In fact, my guess is that licensing their tech would be *more* profitable to Tesla than building cars. It's going to take them a while to get market penetration and volume, whereas they can license to the rest of the luxury brands and get immediate volume.
I'm not saying I know you're wrong, because none of us really *know* how this is going to turn out. Just a somewhat educated opinion.
Glad you like your car. Here's to hoping Tesla continues to be successful!
Kudos to you for coming back and posting. I think your situation and assessment nicely highlights the caveats of owning an all-electric vehicle. For those that don't mind the hassle and like the "wow factor" or "coolness" factor AND whose operational profile and geographic location fit . . . it's a really cool and interesting piece of technology to sit in / drive every day. Personally, my geographic location, my use profile as well as the hassle factor of having to plan ahead wouldn't sit well with me . . . but that's why we have choice. I'm glad you like your car, and on some level I'm glad *someone* is buying Tesla cars, because new tech can never get "from here to there" without early adopters. I'm not too keen on the whole gov't subsidy thing, but as you rightly point out, there are a LOT of subsidies out that that *most* of us don't benefit from. At least I can get behind (a little) a subsidy aimed at automotive technology.
I'm no industry analyst (for automotive), but my *guess* would be that at some point, Tesla is going to turn into an IP licensing firm. If, as you suggest, other car makers can't work around Tesla's IP, and it's vastly superior to what they can come up with on their own, they'll either buy Tesla or license the tech (and it will likely be in Tesla's interest to license it). Why? Well, when you consider what a tremendous undertaking it is to build a car, the power train is really only one part of the equation. Not a small part, but not overly dominant either. Styling, quality, brand, interiors, warranty, support, parts, etc. are all huge activities in and of themselves. So far, Tesla has side-stepped many of these activities by remaining a niche player that is still in the first few years of its existence. The longer they're around, frankly, the more of an issue some of these arenas become. In my opinion, it boils down to this: is it likely that Tesla will master what it has taken auto manufacturers 50+ years to master more quickly and effectively than auto manufactures can mimic or work around Tesla's IP. I'd posit that Tesla could work at the aforementioned for 10 years and still be pretty immature (relative to established brands), while I don't think that a GM, Ford, Toyota, BMW or PAG will need 10 years to work around Tesla's drive train tech.
In fact, my guess is that licensing their tech would be *more* profitable to Tesla than building cars. It's going to take them a while to get market penetration and volume, whereas they can license to the rest of the luxury brands and get immediate volume.
I'm not saying I know you're wrong, because none of us really *know* how this is going to turn out. Just a somewhat educated opinion.
Glad you like your car. Here's to hoping Tesla continues to be successful!
Last edited by dhodory; 02-27-2013 at 12:02 PM.
02-28-2013, 08:44 AM
#87
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...
In fact, my guess is that licensing their tech would be *more* profitable to Tesla than building cars. It's going to take them a while to get market penetration and volume, whereas they can license to the rest of the luxury brands and get immediate volume.
I'm not saying I know you're wrong, because none of us really *know* how this is going to turn out. Just a somewhat educated opinion.
Glad you like your car. Here's to hoping Tesla continues to be successful!
In fact, my guess is that licensing their tech would be *more* profitable to Tesla than building cars. It's going to take them a while to get market penetration and volume, whereas they can license to the rest of the luxury brands and get immediate volume.
I'm not saying I know you're wrong, because none of us really *know* how this is going to turn out. Just a somewhat educated opinion.
Glad you like your car. Here's to hoping Tesla continues to be successful!
I don't think we disagree. Tesla has a great drive train, but a car is more than a drive train, and it takes a while to develop all of the technologies that are in luxury cars. The existing car manufacturers have already spent years working on things like adaptive cruise control or preventing interiors from developing squeaks/rattles with time. It seems rather sensible that they'd combine all of their expertise on the rest of the car with Tesla's expertise on an electric drive train. Daimler is working on such an electric vehicle in the future and Musk credits Daimler's purchase of 10% of Tesla for helping to keep Tesla operational. Toyota has the 2013 Rav4 EV using Tesla's technology.
Intriguingly, though, Tesla shipped about as many of their Model S last quarter as Toyota expects to ship of their Rav4 EV over three years.
Anyway, I agree with you that Tesla could be profitable licensing their technology.
I just don't think it's likely that Audi (or even Nissan with their Leaf) will crush Tesla out of existence in the next 10 years by producing a better high performance electric vehicle.
It will be interesting to see what the future holds.
02-28-2013, 01:51 PM
#88
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Latest on that one test drive.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...91P01H20130226
And the best goes on.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...91P01H20130226
And the best goes on.
02-28-2013, 01:58 PM
#89
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Derek,
Don't mean to be facetious but as you probably know how Audi pipes in noise canceling sounds in the cabin when cylinder deactivation kicks in. Does the Tesla pipe in VROOM VROOM noises in the cabin. Again, no ill intent here as I can't see myself driving a super quiet car no matter how fast it is.
Thanks!
Don't mean to be facetious but as you probably know how Audi pipes in noise canceling sounds in the cabin when cylinder deactivation kicks in. Does the Tesla pipe in VROOM VROOM noises in the cabin. Again, no ill intent here as I can't see myself driving a super quiet car no matter how fast it is.
Thanks!
03-01-2013, 10:53 AM
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Derek,
Don't mean to be facetious but as you probably know how Audi pipes in noise canceling sounds in the cabin when cylinder deactivation kicks in. Does the Tesla pipe in VROOM VROOM noises in the cabin. Again, no ill intent here as I can't see myself driving a super quiet car no matter how fast it is.
Thanks!
Don't mean to be facetious but as you probably know how Audi pipes in noise canceling sounds in the cabin when cylinder deactivation kicks in. Does the Tesla pipe in VROOM VROOM noises in the cabin. Again, no ill intent here as I can't see myself driving a super quiet car no matter how fast it is.
Thanks!
Tesla does not use noise cancelling technology. I suspect that's because it only really works for low frequency sounds, and the road noise and wind noise in the Tesla are mostly higher frequency.
The motor in the Model S is very quiet, and they do not add any artificial noise. There's a little bit of a vroop sound you might hear on a linear induction motor roller coaster, but it's quite subtle.
Personally I find the quiet launch far more satisfying than an engine screaming at me how hard it's working, but de gustibus non est disputandum.
As for Tesla's claim that the NYT article damaged them horribly, I find it hard to believe. Many people seriously considering buying a Tesla probably read Tesla's response to the NYT article. The feud was free publicity, and the NYT's reputation got damaged more than Tesla's. If the article wasn't a net positive for Tesla, it's only because Tesla's publicity team failed to stick simply to the facts and came across as whiny when they started accusing Broder of bad faith.
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