High octane? Really?
#21
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Thanks Beakerz, I appreciate your comments and my real world results back up you statements. I see no difference in MPG and I don't drive my car aggresively so I don't notice a performance loss.
#22
Incorrect. Many years ago I worked at a little no name, local c-store. The Amoco (now BP) across the street hated us. Why? Because as soon as the tanker truck filled up our tanks it drove across the street and filed up his tanks. He even tried to get the distributor to not fill our tanks on the same day so people wouldn't see the same gas going into our tanks as his.
#23
I know that those big gasoline tanker trucks have separate tanks for different octane levels. Most gas stations sell three separate octane fuels. And the low octane and high octane fuel are mixed together to create a mid-level octane fuel. So that would lead me to believe that most tanker trucks carry at least two different octane fuels. So my question is this: Is one truck normally capable of filling the tanks of more than one gasoline station? My guess is that the average gas station tanks could easily accept a full truck load of fuel. I have a hard time believing that a truck would fill one station's tanks and then still have enough fuel left to fill another station's tanks.
#24
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I know that those big gasoline tanker trucks have separate tanks for different octane levels. Most gas stations sell three separate octane fuels. And the low octane and high octane fuel are mixed together to create a mid-level octane fuel. So that would lead me to believe that most tanker trucks carry at least two different octane fuels. So my question is this: Is one truck normally capable of filling the tanks of more than one gasoline station? My guess is that the average gas station tanks could easily accept a full truck load of fuel. I have a hard time believing that a truck would fill one station's tanks and then still have enough fuel left to fill another station's tanks.
#25
AudiWorld Super User
on topic:
This was an interesting data point from the NYT last year where the operator used the wrong fuel and they believe things went outside the normal operating parameters of the various engine control devices designed to prevent meltdown:
March 30, 2010, 7:30 am
Can Using the Wrong Octane Fuel Lead to Disaster?
By PAUL STENQUIST
Last week, Gunnar Heinrich, who runs the site Automobiles De Luxe, wrote that a 2010 Cadillac SRX Turbo he had borrowed from General Motors for a review sustained serious internal damage during a test drive and that he had to be plucked from the side of a mountain road.
According to Mr. Heinrich’s article, using the wrong fuel was partly to blame:
The V-6 in the Cadillac requires a minimum 91 octane. Lab tests had shown that the SRX was running on regular, which meant that yours had inadvertently fed the car 88 octane gas and not the factory mandated premium.
At some point during travel, between 2,000-2,500 r.p.m. — or normal highway cruising speed — the engine’s management system had adjusted the air fuel mixture to work too lean causing a retarded spark – but crucially – it allowed for a simultaneous turbo boost, which led to a catastrophic pressure build-up in the cylinder chambers.
Could a difference of only three octane cause a vehicle to break down? Asked about the incident, a Cadillac spokesman, David Caldwell, said in an interview that the low-octane fuel that Mr. Heinrich bought was a contributing factor but that it wasn’t the principal cause. So the quick and simple answer is no. Using regular fuel in a turbocharged engine or any engine designed for premium generally won’t lead to immediate and serious damage. The long answer is more complicated.
The demon that led to the demise of the 2.8-liter turbocharged V-6 in this Cadillac was detonation, Mr. Caldwell said. It’s a condition caused by the fuel igniting prematurely and in more than one location within the combustion chamber. The multiple flame fronts cause extremely high cylinder pressure that can pound engine parts to death. High-octane fuels don’t ignite as readily as lower-octane blends, so detonation is less likely to occur when they’re used.
But nearly every engine produced today is equipped with a knock sensor. On engines designed for premium fuel, this device compensates when regular is used. Mounted on the engine, the sensor detects the rattle of detonation and sends a signal to the engine computer, which changes the calibration to eliminate the cause. In most cases, that means retarding ignition timing. With the spark coming later, less heat is generated, so unburned fuel isn’t ignited prematurely and detonation doesn’t occur.
In Mr. Heinrich’s case, a failure might have rendered the computer incapable of responding to conditions. Mr. Caldwell said G.M. was still testing and could not say conclusively what caused the problem. G.M. engineers are checking to make sure the calibration can cope with even the most extreme circumstances.
Extreme circumstances were certainly part of the equation in Mr. Heinrich’s incident. According to his article, he was driving up a mountain near Ventura, Calif., with the engine at about 2,000 r.p.m. That’s a high-load situation, which in itself causes high cylinder pressure and combustion chamber heat. Coupled with the detonation-prone nature of regular fuel, those conditions put the knock sensor into overdrive. As the spark was retarded, the engine calibration might have allowed for more boost to avoid a significant loss of power – either by design or because of component failure. That diminished the effectiveness of late spark in regard to eliminating detonation. Consequently, the hammering in the combustion chambers became so violent that a connecting rod was damaged.
The takeaway is straightforward. First, you can usually get away with putting regular fuel in an engine designed for premium, but it’s best to follow the manufacturer’s recommendation.
Second, power-plant engineering is a tricky business. In high-performance engines, power versus reliability is a balancing act, and a slight hiccup in an engine calibration can tip the scales. But no manufacturer wants to be saddled with failures, and you can be sure that it doesn’t take more than one very major and public incident to send the engineers racing back to their calibration computers
Can Using the Wrong Octane Fuel Lead to Disaster?
By PAUL STENQUIST
Last week, Gunnar Heinrich, who runs the site Automobiles De Luxe, wrote that a 2010 Cadillac SRX Turbo he had borrowed from General Motors for a review sustained serious internal damage during a test drive and that he had to be plucked from the side of a mountain road.
According to Mr. Heinrich’s article, using the wrong fuel was partly to blame:
The V-6 in the Cadillac requires a minimum 91 octane. Lab tests had shown that the SRX was running on regular, which meant that yours had inadvertently fed the car 88 octane gas and not the factory mandated premium.
At some point during travel, between 2,000-2,500 r.p.m. — or normal highway cruising speed — the engine’s management system had adjusted the air fuel mixture to work too lean causing a retarded spark – but crucially – it allowed for a simultaneous turbo boost, which led to a catastrophic pressure build-up in the cylinder chambers.
Could a difference of only three octane cause a vehicle to break down? Asked about the incident, a Cadillac spokesman, David Caldwell, said in an interview that the low-octane fuel that Mr. Heinrich bought was a contributing factor but that it wasn’t the principal cause. So the quick and simple answer is no. Using regular fuel in a turbocharged engine or any engine designed for premium generally won’t lead to immediate and serious damage. The long answer is more complicated.
The demon that led to the demise of the 2.8-liter turbocharged V-6 in this Cadillac was detonation, Mr. Caldwell said. It’s a condition caused by the fuel igniting prematurely and in more than one location within the combustion chamber. The multiple flame fronts cause extremely high cylinder pressure that can pound engine parts to death. High-octane fuels don’t ignite as readily as lower-octane blends, so detonation is less likely to occur when they’re used.
But nearly every engine produced today is equipped with a knock sensor. On engines designed for premium fuel, this device compensates when regular is used. Mounted on the engine, the sensor detects the rattle of detonation and sends a signal to the engine computer, which changes the calibration to eliminate the cause. In most cases, that means retarding ignition timing. With the spark coming later, less heat is generated, so unburned fuel isn’t ignited prematurely and detonation doesn’t occur.
In Mr. Heinrich’s case, a failure might have rendered the computer incapable of responding to conditions. Mr. Caldwell said G.M. was still testing and could not say conclusively what caused the problem. G.M. engineers are checking to make sure the calibration can cope with even the most extreme circumstances.
Extreme circumstances were certainly part of the equation in Mr. Heinrich’s incident. According to his article, he was driving up a mountain near Ventura, Calif., with the engine at about 2,000 r.p.m. That’s a high-load situation, which in itself causes high cylinder pressure and combustion chamber heat. Coupled with the detonation-prone nature of regular fuel, those conditions put the knock sensor into overdrive. As the spark was retarded, the engine calibration might have allowed for more boost to avoid a significant loss of power – either by design or because of component failure. That diminished the effectiveness of late spark in regard to eliminating detonation. Consequently, the hammering in the combustion chambers became so violent that a connecting rod was damaged.
The takeaway is straightforward. First, you can usually get away with putting regular fuel in an engine designed for premium, but it’s best to follow the manufacturer’s recommendation.
Second, power-plant engineering is a tricky business. In high-performance engines, power versus reliability is a balancing act, and a slight hiccup in an engine calibration can tip the scales. But no manufacturer wants to be saddled with failures, and you can be sure that it doesn’t take more than one very major and public incident to send the engineers racing back to their calibration computers
#26
AudiWorld Super User
age-old argument
Car and Driver did this bit 10 yrs ago and offered:
When the 2.0 litre engine in these cars is putting out in excess of 100hp/Liter, there's a reason the engine manufacturer makes specific, minimum fuel recommendations - - whether you're racing or not
...
Our low-tech Ram managed to eke out a few extra dyno ponies on premium fuel, but at the track its performance was virtually identical. The Mustang's knock sensors and EEC-V computer found 2 hp more on the dyno and shaved a more impressive 0.3 second off its quarter-mile time at the track. The Accord took a tiny step backward in power (minus 2.6 percent) and performance (minus 1.5 percent) on premium fuel, a phenomenon for which none of the experts we consulted could offer an explanation except to posit that the results may fall within normal test-to-test variability. This, of course, may also be the case for the gains of similar magnitude realized by the Ram and Mustang.
The results were more dramatic with the test cars that require premium fuel. The turbocharged Saab's sophisticated Trionic engine-control system dialed the power back 9.8 percent on regular gas, and performance dropped 10.1 percent at the track. Burning regular in our BMW M3 diminished track performance by 6.6 percent, but neither the BMW nor the Saab suffered any drivability problems while burning regular unleaded fuel. Unfortunately, the M3's sophisticated electronics made it impossible to test the car on the dyno (see caption at top).
Our tests confirm that for most cars there is no compelling reason to buy more expensive fuel than the factory recommends, as any performance gain realized will surely be far less than the percentage hike in price. Cheapskates burning regular in cars designed to run on premium fuel can expect to trim performance by about the same percent they save at the pump. If the car is sufficiently new and sophisticated, it may not suffer any ill effects, but all such skinflints should be ready to switch back to premium at the first sign of knock or other drivability woes. And finally, if a car calibrated for regular fuel begins to knock on anything less than premium or midgrade, owners should invest in a tuneup, emissions-control-system repair, or detergent additives to solve, rather than bandage, the root problem. Class dismissed.
Our low-tech Ram managed to eke out a few extra dyno ponies on premium fuel, but at the track its performance was virtually identical. The Mustang's knock sensors and EEC-V computer found 2 hp more on the dyno and shaved a more impressive 0.3 second off its quarter-mile time at the track. The Accord took a tiny step backward in power (minus 2.6 percent) and performance (minus 1.5 percent) on premium fuel, a phenomenon for which none of the experts we consulted could offer an explanation except to posit that the results may fall within normal test-to-test variability. This, of course, may also be the case for the gains of similar magnitude realized by the Ram and Mustang.
The results were more dramatic with the test cars that require premium fuel. The turbocharged Saab's sophisticated Trionic engine-control system dialed the power back 9.8 percent on regular gas, and performance dropped 10.1 percent at the track. Burning regular in our BMW M3 diminished track performance by 6.6 percent, but neither the BMW nor the Saab suffered any drivability problems while burning regular unleaded fuel. Unfortunately, the M3's sophisticated electronics made it impossible to test the car on the dyno (see caption at top).
Our tests confirm that for most cars there is no compelling reason to buy more expensive fuel than the factory recommends, as any performance gain realized will surely be far less than the percentage hike in price. Cheapskates burning regular in cars designed to run on premium fuel can expect to trim performance by about the same percent they save at the pump. If the car is sufficiently new and sophisticated, it may not suffer any ill effects, but all such skinflints should be ready to switch back to premium at the first sign of knock or other drivability woes. And finally, if a car calibrated for regular fuel begins to knock on anything less than premium or midgrade, owners should invest in a tuneup, emissions-control-system repair, or detergent additives to solve, rather than bandage, the root problem. Class dismissed.
When the 2.0 litre engine in these cars is putting out in excess of 100hp/Liter, there's a reason the engine manufacturer makes specific, minimum fuel recommendations - - whether you're racing or not
#27
Yup, that's an interesting article and definitely relevent to the subject. Keep in mind that GM issued a recall to "fix" the faulty engine management system that allowed those engines to grenade on lower octane fuel. If they were engineered correctly in the first place, then using lower octane wouldn't have had the potential to cause any engine damage. But still, the point here is that it is still possible to cause damage to the engine, given some sort of faulty engine management controls.
#28
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I almost always run 87 octane and see no problem at all. Performance isn't noticably less and no difference in fuel economy. My MPG since new is 27.3 and I typically get 31-32 on the highway. I love my car.
#29
AudiWorld Senior Member
In my experience, the only reason any mfg requires a certain grade of fuel is to ensure they match the advertised hp and performance to mitigate any lawsuits for misrepresentation...
All modern (US sold) engines have anti-knock sensors required by law and therefore will function with lower grade fuels. But they will run at a lower hp level than advertised,
and by many studies, not at such a lower level as to be felt by most drivers....
It's your car, and so far, you can still do what you want with it
All modern (US sold) engines have anti-knock sensors required by law and therefore will function with lower grade fuels. But they will run at a lower hp level than advertised,
and by many studies, not at such a lower level as to be felt by most drivers....
It's your car, and so far, you can still do what you want with it
#30
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It depends on how much the ignition timing is retarded by the ECU. If it is not retarded at all, no performance is lost. If it is retarded quite a bit (to eliminate knock), then the engine can typically lose up to 8 to 10 percent of it's peak horsepower. In most cases (but not all), the engine would have to be under wide open throttle in order to cause the ignition timing to be retarded and the engine to lose power. Keep in mind that once the knock is gone, the ignition timing will return back to normal and the engine will once again be making full power.
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